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Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

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Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#291

Post by skybrian »

zamalek wrote: post #186
skybrian wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you might not be quite getting the concept behind this sort of interview. Although some code is written, this is (usually) a test of how you talk about code. You want to show that, if a co-worker asks for your advice on how to solve a tricky problem, you will be able to help them figure it out. Part of this is understanding what they're asking for and adapting. If someone wants to know how to document…

A binary tree is plausibly something a candidate would know, or could figure out without communicating at all. Apple picked possibly the worst problem if what you are describing was their goal, the ideal problem would be something that is unlikely to be known by any candidate. If their goal was to determine if the candidate could actually code, a binary tree probably asks too much (the ideal real-world solution is li…

I disagree. Expecting people to invent novel data structures on the fly, under stress, is unreasonable. Usually the idea is to ask a question they haven't actually seen, but is still somehow solvable using basic data structures most people learned in school, maybe with a minor tweak for the problem.

Otherwise, it's unlikely that most people will be able to solve it in 45 minutes, even with hints, and then you don't learn anything other than that they failed at an unreasonably hard problem.

So, one of the problem's solutions being a binary tree isn't itself necessarily a problem. The interview could be done well or badly depending on execution, and we can't judge that from afar. All we really know is that a binary tree was somehow involved.

---

At least, that's the idea. Interviewing is still terrible. It's pretty random to base a hiring decision on a few (extended) questions, and I think interviewers are left on their own too much to come up with good questions. How do we even know what's a good question or not?

Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be better to choose twice as many candidates as you need and pick half of them at random, just so everybody is clear that there's a lot of luck involved and they don't take either success or failure some kind of precise indicator of someone's worth.

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#292

Post by carapace »

no_wizard wrote: post #61

I actually agree whole heartedly with the intentions behind this article. I find Apples documentation to be incomplete and not nearly as detailed as I think it should be. I think that personally it’s not all that well organized either. My minimum standard for good documentation has and always been Python’s[0]. While no documentation is perfect, I think they mostly get it right by providing good explanations and examp…

Python's docs are infamously bad. And I say that as a Python fan.

PHP's docs are the minimum standard, IMO.

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#293

Post by deminature »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #127
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #70

Some time ago, I was contacted by Apple to apply for a job. My code is insanely well-documented. I like to think that a lot of the inspiration for my code docs comes from Apple's open codebases. Their code is exceptionally well-documented. In any case, as is usual with all employers, these days, they completely ignored the focused, relevant links that I sent them to elements of my extensive portfolio of repos, and, i…

> I'll make it clear that I'm NOT a fan of these. I am mediocre, at best, at them, as I don't come from a traditional CS background (I started as an EE). I come from a CS background and struggle with these too. The big problem I have is this performance stuff is often barely relevant to the position. You need to know the principle of a BST. Unless you're building a database working in a unique scenario, actually trav…

As someone administering these kind of questions regularly, the majority of interviewers are aware of the shortcomings. There's a kind of 'it's the worst form of interviewing except for all those other forms that have been tried' attitude prevailing. Every other method has problems that are usually worse than those associated with doing abstract problems like implementing a BST.

From what I've seen, interviewing is evolving and focusing gradually more on realistic, practically-oriented coding, and less on Leetcode-style questions, especially as people are learning to game those.

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#295

Post by wolco »

richardwhiuk wrote: post #243
not_a_cop75 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

php, whether you like the language, or abhor it, has always had some of the most useful documentation, I've found.

I disagree. See Example 5 in https://www.php.net/manual/en/security.database.sql-injectio... This is the recommended way to avoid SQL injection, using sprintf...

So bad docs because they list a way you don't approve of? They do list a number of different ways. They could have used intval() for example 4 because I prefer it but it doesn't take away from the docs or make them bad.

Do you have a method that makes sprintf with d value invalid?

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#296

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #263
saghm wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you clarify what the intended reading is, then?

At my company, HR was run by the General Counsel. It was NOT a "warm fuzzy" HR, but it WAS an extremely "legal-correct" HR. I would have been fired if I had shown any bias at all. I had my differences with some folks there, and I wasn't always thrilled with the way that things were run, but it was the most diverse environment I've ever seen; and I include a lot of Silicon Valley companies in that statement. The simpl…

I should also add that managing a team that has several senior, married people is NOT the same as managing a team of young, unmarried folks.

An almost guaranteed way to lose people with families, is to insist that they must ignore their family to work the job.

This means that things like offsites and travel need to take into account things like school schedules, childcare and time off. I would often let people travel on Sunday to Japan, taking the heat for them not being there for a Monday meeting (which usually was just a "set the agenda" meeting anyway). That was my job.

It doesn't mean that someone going through a divorce, or caring for a sick family member, can take a ton of time off when a project is melting down, but it does mean that I would work with them, to ensure that their families get cared for, and that they can leave the job where it belongs, so that they are 100% for their families.

If you do things like this, you end up with a team that will take a bullet for you, and will do things like travel to Japan for two weeks to work on an emergency integration.

It's absolutely shocking how many managers don't get that.

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#297

Post by jontro »

richardwhiuk wrote: post #243
not_a_cop75 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

php, whether you like the language, or abhor it, has always had some of the most useful documentation, I've found.

I disagree. See Example 5 in https://www.php.net/manual/en/security.database.sql-injectio... This is the recommended way to avoid SQL injection, using sprintf...

The article states this as the second bullet point "Use prepared statements with bound variables."

Reading the page I actually think this is pretty good for being language documentation.

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#298

Post by arcticbull »

microtherion wrote: post #278
arcticbull wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically only the recruiters looked at the repos/portfolio you provided, if at all -- that's to get you through the door. Once you get on-site interviewers tend not to even look at your resume. This can be good or bad, as it eliminates a lot of bias based on education, background, etc. An interviewer has a question that's well calibrated, that they've seen people answer hundreds of times. There's a simple answer…

Speaking only for myself, before I interview someone, I definitely look at their resume and prepare a few questions about it. I also look at github accounts if they were mentioned in the resume, but I tend to downweight them for a number of reasons: 1) You can't always be 100% sure the code was actually written by the candidate. 2) One quality I'm looking for in particular is somebody who can work well with OTHER PEO…

I feel like I get a lot of this signal with much less noise by asking someone in the moment to “tell me about something you’ve built.” While you can lie on a resume it’s much harder to lie about that on the spot but it should be really easy for you to tell me about something you cared enough about to make.

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#299

Post by vkou »

anchpop wrote: post #284
vkou wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. There are plenty of websites which will let you grind away at FAANG interview questions. If you have a few weeks of time to waste on gaming this signal, you'll be coding self-balancing trees in your sleep... And have no issues with passing an interview for at least one of these firms. Depending on your current salary, this may be a much better ROI than your entire undergrad degree was. 2. Some of these firms occas…

> There are plenty of websites which will let you grind away at FAANG interview questions. If you have a few weeks of time to waste on gaming this signal, you'll be coding self-balancing trees in your sleep. I'd like to practice this, any recommendations?

Leetcode, if you want to pay for UX.

If you don't want to pay, just get the list of former questions from the internet. [1]

Many of those questions may no longer be asked, but if you can ace them, you should have few problems with similar questions/variants thereof.

This is not a skillset that develops from doing your day job. You have to deliberately practice to get good at this.

[1] https://www.interviewcake.com/google-interview-questions

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#300

Post by optimuspaul »

trangon wrote: post #225
phendrenad2 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think Google and Apple were making a poor choice by doing this kind of interview, but I wonder now if it gets the results they want: they want interchangeable cogs that don't stand out too much. They want known quantities. If you're "the documentation guy" or "the security-testing girl", you've wasted time learning skills they won't utilize, since they want you to be exactly like every other developer. If d…

Leetcode is just a game that you have to play to get into these companies. I suspect that OP had other interview rounds that went poorly. There is always a chance of getting a bad interviewer, but it doesn’t often happen in every single round.

I think it's bullshit that "Leetcode" is a game you have to play. I've been in the software business for 25 years and not once had to use any of that knowledge in my work. When those games come up in interviews with me I call them out, if they hold fast I walk. I don't need to have my time wasted. My experience should speak for itself.
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