Live data from Hacker News

Tether: The Story So Far

kalzumeus.com

111–120 of 241 posts

Re: Tether: The Story So Far

#111
post #70

> I have looked, quite a bit. I have not found a good use case yet I'm always surprised that intelligent and knowledgeable people claim this. You haven't even found a single use case? You don't think buying a VPN anonymously is a good use case? Or see the need for uncensorable donations? (Remember how the U.S. shut down Wikileak's PayPal donations when they exposed their war crimes?) Or that cryptocurrencies allow bu…

Cryptocurrencies aren't anonymous. They also don't eliminate payment processor risk: fraudulent exchanges, hackers, and your own mistakes can all lose or lock you out of your money. And generally there's far less legal recourse when that happens with crypto. I'm skeptical how many people in Venezuela saved their fortunes via Bitcoin et al, but if you have some data on that, I'd be curious to hear about it. In particu…

A more common case for preserving wealth on emigration is actually South Africa. Many reasonably prosperous South Africans that emigrated used Bitcoin to bypass SA's strict capital flight restrictions.

Re: Tether: The Story So Far

#112
post #70

> I have looked, quite a bit. I have not found a good use case yet I'm always surprised that intelligent and knowledgeable people claim this. You haven't even found a single use case? You don't think buying a VPN anonymously is a good use case? Or see the need for uncensorable donations? (Remember how the U.S. shut down Wikileak's PayPal donations when they exposed their war crimes?) Or that cryptocurrencies allow bu…

You respond twice downthread that while Bitcoin may not be anonymous, Monero is. Do you then concede that anonymous payments are not a major use case for the non-anonymous Bitcoin protocol? Why then is Bitcoin so valuable?

Re: Tether: The Story So Far

#113
post #106

I agree that the people behind Tether are fundamentally pretty sketchy, and it has a significant risk of collapse. However, Tether can't be totally ignored because as of right now, it's still the best tool for some things. The main value of Tether is that the BTC-Tether market is the most liquid cryptocurrency market. So if you want to exchange Bitcoin into dollars in an all-cryptocurrency transaction, you will proba…

This sounds like "...this scam works totally fine so long as you only intend to be in it for a short time, so you don't end up being the one holding the bag."

Re: Tether: The Story So Far

#114
post #52

While I do believe Tether is pretty sketchy and I don't trust any so-called "stablecoin", it's also pretty clear the author has an ax to grind and has had for a while. Funny how every time people say it's so easy to prove Tether's frailty, they say there's way too much counterparty risk in shorting Tether. Shorting a scam should be a sure bet, but it has yet to happen. So, buyer beware.

Why are you dismissing counterparty risk so quickly? The failure rate of Bitcoin exchanges is _high_.

As evidenced by http://dayssinceacryptocurrencyexchangehaslostmorethan100mil...

Re: Tether: The Story So Far

#115
post #70

> I have looked, quite a bit. I have not found a good use case yet I'm always surprised that intelligent and knowledgeable people claim this. You haven't even found a single use case? You don't think buying a VPN anonymously is a good use case? Or see the need for uncensorable donations? (Remember how the U.S. shut down Wikileak's PayPal donations when they exposed their war crimes?) Or that cryptocurrencies allow bu…

You respond twice downthread that while Bitcoin may not be anonymous, Monero is. Do you then concede that anonymous payments are not a major use case for the non-anonymous Bitcoin protocol? Why then is Bitcoin so valuable?

Well, Bitcoin is good enough for these use cases even if it's only pseudo-anonymous.

But I do agree that the current valuation of Bitcoin is to a very large part driven by speculation, and from the network effect. As some comments here point to, Monero isn't even widely known despite being technically superior in many ways.

Re: Tether: The Story So Far

#116
post #106

I agree that the people behind Tether are fundamentally pretty sketchy, and it has a significant risk of collapse. However, Tether can't be totally ignored because as of right now, it's still the best tool for some things. The main value of Tether is that the BTC-Tether market is the most liquid cryptocurrency market. So if you want to exchange Bitcoin into dollars in an all-cryptocurrency transaction, you will proba…

if you want to exchange Bitcoin into dollars in an all-cryptocurrency transaction What does that even mean? Dollars aren't cryptocurrency. If you're converting to Tethers, you're not converting to Dollars.

I think of it as “one dollar minus some fees”. I would usually rather have one tether than one dollar minus credit card fees. Yeah if you want to use it in the fiat economy you have to exchange it out, but that isn’t too hard.

Re: Tether: The Story So Far

#117
post #70

> I have looked, quite a bit. I have not found a good use case yet I'm always surprised that intelligent and knowledgeable people claim this. You haven't even found a single use case? You don't think buying a VPN anonymously is a good use case? Or see the need for uncensorable donations? (Remember how the U.S. shut down Wikileak's PayPal donations when they exposed their war crimes?) Or that cryptocurrencies allow bu…

All of your use cases involve anonymity. Crypto currencies don’t provide anonymity. Sure it’s not directly tied to your name and address, but it’s quite possible to make that tie. Such cases are on the news fairly frequently.

It doesn't matter whether most people's use cases are "truly" anonymous or not, because not everyone who makes an anonymous payment is the kingpin of a human trafficking ring who will actually have large amounts of resources brought to bear on them.

People use burner phones to get drugs for nights out. Theoretically none of this is really anonymous, you're pinging cell towers, you're probably on CCTV, etc etc. But realistically that doesn't matter and it works as a system.

Even something like Monero which might have claim to be truly untraceable really isn't because you're on like, an Intel ME machine and the NSA likely has backdoors in the Linux kernel and ... blah blah blah ...

But it's good enough.

Imagine if Hacker News required ID-verified real name front and center on every post. Throwaway accounts are impossible. They were never perfect anyway, but now they don't exist.

The discourse would change. Perhaps an individual might see it as being better, or worse, but it'd definitely be different.

The traditional banking system is that ID-verified world. Cryptocurrencies are the release valve.

FWIW I think Tether is bollocks.

Re: Tether: The Story So Far

#118
>Similar to Bitcoin, with the promise of less price swings due to the capability for redemptions and the promised reserve.

If you read the article, got to this point and didn't already know what the rest of the article was going to say... well, good luck in future financial endeavors! :)

Re: Tether: The Story So Far

#119
post #95
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> admitting under oath in court that they were never backed by reserves Huh. Did I miss something? If they were never backed by reserves how could $800 million of their funds ended up seized?

Never 100% backed. Clearly there was some money.

Still missing the context on that, because AFAICT the reports seem to show that it was at one point 100% backed.

It's very possible that I'm missing something, since this isn't something I've paid a lot of attention to (as it always seemed obvious that it would eventually end up in this state).

Re: Tether: The Story So Far

#120
The story, summarized, as I understand it from this article:

1. It's difficult to bank cryptocurrency because traditional finance has KYC/AML procedures and cryptocurrency exchanges (generally) don't.

2. For awhile, the largest exchange was Bitfinex.

3. Bitfinex suffered a breakin and lost $70MM worth of Bitcoin, and became insolvent.

4. Bitfinex took 36% of all clients deposits/balances to make up for the loss, and repaid them in "BFX" tokens, redeemable for equity in Bitfinex, and eventually for $1/BFX.

5. Bitfinex banked through a series of small regional banks, but these were all backstopped by Wells Fargo, which ultimately cut Bitfinex off.

6. So Bitfinex switched to Tether, a stablecoin meant to trade 1:1 with USD; if you can trust Tether, you don't so much urgently need bank support, because even if Bitcoin (or Monero or whatever) plunges in value, your Tethers will still be worth $1; you can "offramp" your cryptocurrency into Tethers instead of USD.

7. Ostensibly, Tether works by being backed by reserves of dollars or dollar-equivalent commodities.

8. This, as kind of an aside, is a huge win for criminals, who accept fraud detection risk every time they deal with a real bank, but can't accept the currency risk of keeping holdings in cryptocurrency. Bitfinex/Tether even advertises Tether as a way of avoiding KYC.

8. Tether isn't and probably never was backed by dollars or dollar-equivalent commodities; rather, Tether was "backed" by some admixture of Bitfinex receivables and cryptocurrencies.

9. Tether got kicked out of all the Asian banks, happened on a tiny Puerto Rican "bank" called Noble, which was backed by the large BNY Mellon bank; Noble balked at banking Tether, Tether invested $2MM in Noble to get over that objection, BNY Mellon noticed, and killed Noble.

10. Tether switched to Deltec Bank.

11. Tether started using a money laundering firm called Crypto Capital, which set up shell companies to fraudulently route deposits to banks with poor KYC/AML compliance; Bitfinex gave customers wire instructions sourced from Crypto Capital, which were all in some sense I guess a form of wire fraud? Super-amusingly, the wire instructions Bitfinex sent customers included a warning not to reveal any of the details of the instructions, to avoid systemic risk to the greater cryptocurrency economy.

12. Crypto Capital's founder stole a bunch of money from his firm, over a long period.

13. Crypto Capital got caught, a bunch of their accounts got frozen, Tether became insolvent, there was a run on Tether.

14. But Tether is still worth $1, possibly because Bitfinex resorts to shenanigans to satisfy withdrawals, like offering a premium for withdrawals denominated in Bitcoin (which you can sell at a reputable, banked exchange for dollars), or using mules to deliver dollars on a bespoke basis, or satisfying withdrawals using customer deposits directly and papering over that fraud with loan documentation.

15. A bunch of people got indicted recently.

16. The plates are still spinning in this plate-spinning act.

Am I missing anything here?

Post reply on HN