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Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

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Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#271

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

megous wrote: post #226
FpUser wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But I also know that you can have so much sugar you fall into a diabetic coma. Exactly my feelings. Same thing here started from machine code and now doing everything else including kitchen sink

Did you guys really start from machine code or do you mean assembler?

Machine. Hex keypad and a lot of looking up hex codes for commands.

Type in a bunch of numbers, then set the PC to 0.

Assembler was great after that.

I do not remember that stuff fondly. It sucked.

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#272

Post by adonese »

no_wizard wrote: post #61

I actually agree whole heartedly with the intentions behind this article. I find Apples documentation to be incomplete and not nearly as detailed as I think it should be. I think that personally it’s not all that well organized either. My minimum standard for good documentation has and always been Python’s[0]. While no documentation is perfect, I think they mostly get it right by providing good explanations and examp…

Sometimes i think python's docs are very verbose. Check for example argparse[1]!

GO docs are quite very neat and helpful though.

[1]: https://docs.python.org/3/library/argparse.html

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#273

Post by jimbokun »

grogenaut wrote: post #194
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring dozens of repos (non-forked), and thousands of lines of testable, shipping code, is probably not helpful. I was a manager for a long time. I loved long résumés and relevant material. I was hiring expensive people to work on really important stuff, and there was no way that I wanted to rush the vetting. Also, I never gave a single test, and I think I got it right, every time.

As someone who does a lot of interviewing at a big company, by the time the candidate is in a room (virtual or real) with me large amounts of vetting has been done by managers and recruiting. I really only look at the resume for context if I even do at all. I'm there to cover a specific technical competency and soft competency, and any other data I can get in 45 minutes + bio break, make feel comfortable, and them as…

Throw out everything else you are doing in those 45 minutes and just look at their repo and make a decision based on that. You'll get better results.

(Maybe spend a few minutes on the phone just to verify they are really the person who wrote all that code.)

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#275

Post by revscat »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #46
AlexandrB wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the exception that proves the rule though? Why is Twitter the most effective way to get developer support from Apple as opposed to their own website?

Yeah. As much as I appreciate their responsiveness on Twitter, it doesn't much help those of us who are not on Twitter. (Tangential rant: I dislike how it seems like the most effective path for anything resembling customer service from many companies is to call them out on Twitter alone. I've written emails to some companies over months to no single response—but to look on their Twitter you'll see an answer within ho…

I get what you're saying -- that companies should be internally driven to address concerns such as yours -- but I'm starting to shift away from that thinking. We're social apes. We evolved in groups, and respond to group pressures. Responding to public shaming is perhaps a more natural state of things than what we tend to expect.

It certainly seems more effective.

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#276

Post by Ensorceled »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #46
AlexandrB wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the exception that proves the rule though? Why is Twitter the most effective way to get developer support from Apple as opposed to their own website?

Yeah. As much as I appreciate their responsiveness on Twitter, it doesn't much help those of us who are not on Twitter. (Tangential rant: I dislike how it seems like the most effective path for anything resembling customer service from many companies is to call them out on Twitter alone. I've written emails to some companies over months to no single response—but to look on their Twitter you'll see an answer within ho…

Yes, pretty much every company is this way. I often get a response, support ticket and solution via Twitter before my email/webform request is even processed.

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#277

Post by birdyrooster »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #201
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #70

Some time ago, I was contacted by Apple to apply for a job. My code is insanely well-documented. I like to think that a lot of the inspiration for my code docs comes from Apple's open codebases. Their code is exceptionally well-documented. In any case, as is usual with all employers, these days, they completely ignored the focused, relevant links that I sent them to elements of my extensive portfolio of repos, and, i…

I used to think Google and Apple were making a poor choice by doing this kind of interview, but I wonder now if it gets the results they want: they want interchangeable cogs that don't stand out too much. They want known quantities. If you're "the documentation guy" or "the security-testing girl", you've wasted time learning skills they won't utilize, since they want you to be exactly like every other developer. If d…

Before you throw Google and Apple into the same bucket consider this: There is no unified job description for a Software Engineer at Apple, and it will often vary depending on which VP or even Director you report to. At Google, there is a ladder comprised of specific milestones that you must meet that is agreed upon by committee and used throughout the entire company.

At Google, you almost never know which team you will land in before you interview. At Apple, you probably know who your future manager will be before you interview.

(Source: I have worked at both companies.)

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#278

Post by microtherion »

arcticbull wrote: post #236
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #70

Some time ago, I was contacted by Apple to apply for a job. My code is insanely well-documented. I like to think that a lot of the inspiration for my code docs comes from Apple's open codebases. Their code is exceptionally well-documented. In any case, as is usual with all employers, these days, they completely ignored the focused, relevant links that I sent them to elements of my extensive portfolio of repos, and, i…

Realistically only the recruiters looked at the repos/portfolio you provided, if at all -- that's to get you through the door. Once you get on-site interviewers tend not to even look at your resume. This can be good or bad, as it eliminates a lot of bias based on education, background, etc. An interviewer has a question that's well calibrated, that they've seen people answer hundreds of times. There's a simple answer…

Speaking only for myself, before I interview someone, I definitely look at their resume and prepare a few questions about it. I also look at github accounts if they were mentioned in the resume, but I tend to downweight them for a number of reasons:

1) You can't always be 100% sure the code was actually written by the candidate.

2) One quality I'm looking for in particular is somebody who can work well with OTHER PEOPLE'S CODE, and that's even harder to evaluate. If I see a balance of original repos and forks, that might be some evidence, but again, how do I dig out what they contributed? Chasing down PRs would be more helpful, but that definitely is too much work for a job interview.

3) Having a busy github account could be a marker of particular life circumstances (to avoid waving the red flag of "privilege" around too much) — the candidate is not overly busy working a second job, raising young children, or giving 120% in his day job.

4) There are plenty of respectable reasons not to code in your spare time — you may have different hobbies etc. When hiring pathologists, we don't give preference to candidates who cut up bodies in their spare time. We should get out of the habit of doing so for programmers.

5) A busy github account can also be a warning sign of somebody who might be more invested in side projects (or possibly even bootstrapping a startup) than in their day job.

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#279

Post by derefr »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #70

Some time ago, I was contacted by Apple to apply for a job. My code is insanely well-documented. I like to think that a lot of the inspiration for my code docs comes from Apple's open codebases. Their code is exceptionally well-documented. In any case, as is usual with all employers, these days, they completely ignored the focused, relevant links that I sent them to elements of my extensive portfolio of repos, and, i…

> I suspect that they may be hiring less-disciplined engineers, these days.

I don't know about that; if Apple had lowered their hiring bar, they'd likely have enough engineers to not be constantly starving one project or another of talent because it's being "borrowed" by the Big New (next-to-announce-at-a-keynote) Thing. That still seems to be a problem; I haven't noticed any decrease in the number of Apple projects that "lay fallow" while their engineers are off doing something else.

Re: Apple Developer Documentation Is Missing

#280

Post by arcticbull »

pjmlp wrote: post #250
arcticbull wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a game. You win, you get a job. It's worth spending a few weeks and just banging out BSTs every night until you're good at it. Engineers with years of industry experience tend to fall flat in these interviews because they haven't written BSTs in years and don't think they should have to in an interview. It's not about should, though, it's about whether you want the job. Change the system from the inside.

Thankfully in many regions we still have the choice not to go through hiring games.

I agree with you that in an ideal world there'd be a way for you to demonstrate your prowess without playing these games. However, in the real world, I want a job, I'm going to play? It's not like I don't solve hard engineering puzzles for fun on my own time anyways. Framing matters a lot!

Here's what I like about interviews:

(1) I get to talk about myself and how great I am without people rolling their eyes at me.

(2) I get to solve a fun puzzle with:

(2)(a) A defined answer.

(2)(b) That I never have to maintain.

(2)(c) With a potential financial windfall at the end.

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