Train before you hire • Hacker News Board

Re: Train before you hire

#11

Post by imack » Tue, Jan 25, 2011, 4:11 AM UTC

listrophy wrote: post #8

Standard practice at my company: interviewees pair with a developer for a week before being offered a job. Preferably, over the week, you'd switch pairs at least once or twice. If we don't hire you, we pay you as a contractor for your time. If we do hire you, we pay you either as an employee or contractor for your time (depending on what our accountant says). We'll bend the rules depending on circumstances, but basic…

Doesn't that limit you to potential employees who aren't currently employed?

And what percentage of people do you "drop"? I imagine once you spend a week with someone you might get attached to them enough that it would be hard to let them go for something subjective unless they were a pretty big asshole.

Re: Train before you hire

#12

Post by bartonfink » Tue, Jan 25, 2011, 4:17 AM UTC

listrophy wrote: post #8

Standard practice at my company: interviewees pair with a developer for a week before being offered a job. Preferably, over the week, you'd switch pairs at least once or twice. If we don't hire you, we pay you as a contractor for your time. If we do hire you, we pay you either as an employee or contractor for your time (depending on what our accountant says). We'll bend the rules depending on circumstances, but basic…

Interesting, and I'm not saying this doesn't work, but doesn't that basically imply you only hire those who are already unemployed?

Re: Train before you hire

#13

Post by dgouldin » Tue, Jan 25, 2011, 4:27 AM UTC

In a previous life, I was a C# dev for fat client windows apps. Without any serious web development experience, a Django shop took a chance on me, and I learned the whole stack on the job. I feel comfortable saying they were happy with my work, and I came out of the experience with a new set of skills, a new career really.

All that to say, I'm a big proponent of taking the time (and yes it does take time) to find out if somebody is smart and willing to learn and leaving resumes with #yrs experience in technology X to the HR monkeys. If a skill is in demand, a latent expert is of much higher long-term value than a present one.

Re: Train before you hire

#14

Post by listrophy » Tue, Jan 25, 2011, 4:35 AM UTC

imack wrote: post #11

listrophy wrote: post #8

Standard practice at my company: interviewees pair with a developer for a week before being offered a job. Preferably, over the week, you'd switch pairs at least once or twice. If we don't hire you, we pay you as a contractor for your time. If we do hire you, we pay you either as an employee or contractor for your time (depending on what our accountant says). We'll bend the rules depending on circumstances, but basic…

Doesn't that limit you to potential employees who aren't currently employed? And what percentage of people do you "drop"? I imagine once you spend a week with someone you might get attached to them enough that it would be hard to let them go for something subjective unless they were a pretty big asshole.

We're pretty young, so we haven't had too many candidates get to the interview phase... we've "dropped" one out of 5 candidates. You have to impress us to get to the point of spending a week with us.

As far as the "unemployed" part goes, things aren't usually as cut-and-dried as that. Of those five, one was on the verge of being laid off, and one was a student. The other three were gainfully employed. Being open to working weekends with candidates makes this much more possible, though more lengthy.

We're pretty proud of who we are. If your desire to work with us is strong enough, you'll find a way. And if you do find a way under difficult circumstances, it says volumes about your personal drive.

Re: Train before you hire

#15

Post by dgouldin » Tue, Jan 25, 2011, 4:35 AM UTC

imack wrote: post #11

listrophy wrote: post #8

Standard practice at my company: interviewees pair with a developer for a week before being offered a job. Preferably, over the week, you'd switch pairs at least once or twice. If we don't hire you, we pay you as a contractor for your time. If we do hire you, we pay you either as an employee or contractor for your time (depending on what our accountant says). We'll bend the rules depending on circumstances, but basic…

Doesn't that limit you to potential employees who aren't currently employed? And what percentage of people do you "drop"? I imagine once you spend a week with someone you might get attached to them enough that it would be hard to let them go for something subjective unless they were a pretty big asshole.

Doesn't that limit you to potential employees who aren't currently employed?

Hiring should be at least as important to the team as to any manager. (After all, they're the ones who have to "live with" the new hire.) I can see this working if the team is flexible enough to accomodate the potential employee's current work schedule, assuming the potential is also flexible enough to take on the extra load for a bit.

Re: Train before you hire

#16

Post by ktsmith » Tue, Jan 25, 2011, 4:54 AM UTC

listrophy wrote: post #8

Standard practice at my company: interviewees pair with a developer for a week before being offered a job. Preferably, over the week, you'd switch pairs at least once or twice. If we don't hire you, we pay you as a contractor for your time. If we do hire you, we pay you either as an employee or contractor for your time (depending on what our accountant says). We'll bend the rules depending on circumstances, but basic…

> If we don't hire you, we pay you as a contractor for your time. If we do hire you, we pay you either as an employee or contractor for your time (depending on what our accountant says).

If you are in the U.S. I hope you've had this hiring process reviewed by your legal counsel. Given the brief description above you are quite possibly violating several federal employment laws in addition to IRS rules on what constitutes a contractor vs an employee.

Re: Train before you hire

#17

Post by me2i81 » Tue, Jan 25, 2011, 5:13 AM UTC

ebiester wrote: post #10

IIRC, this is how AOL used to work. Everyone started in the call center. After 6 months, you could start working your way up, and many people went into QA and programming from there.

Nothing attracts top-notch engineering talent like the lure of working in the call center.

Re: Train before you hire

#18

Post by listrophy » Tue, Jan 25, 2011, 5:24 AM UTC

ktsmith wrote: post #16

listrophy wrote: post #8

Standard practice at my company: interviewees pair with a developer for a week before being offered a job. Preferably, over the week, you'd switch pairs at least once or twice. If we don't hire you, we pay you as a contractor for your time. If we do hire you, we pay you either as an employee or contractor for your time (depending on what our accountant says). We'll bend the rules depending on circumstances, but basic…

> If we don't hire you, we pay you as a contractor for your time. If we do hire you, we pay you either as an employee or contractor for your time (depending on what our accountant says). If you are in the U.S. I hope you've had this hiring process reviewed by your legal counsel. Given the brief description above you are quite possibly violating several federal employment laws in addition to IRS rules on what constitu…

Unless you're a lawyer providing counsel, I'm quite certain we're solid. That's not to say I'm right... I'm just fairly confident.

We send out the necessary W-9s and everything. Effectively, our candidates are freelancers until we hire them... and we pay our freelancers according to IRS rules.

Re: Train before you hire

#19

Post by Mc_Big_G » Tue, Jan 25, 2011, 6:01 AM UTC

bartonfink wrote: post #12

listrophy wrote: post #8

Standard practice at my company: interviewees pair with a developer for a week before being offered a job. Preferably, over the week, you'd switch pairs at least once or twice. If we don't hire you, we pay you as a contractor for your time. If we do hire you, we pay you either as an employee or contractor for your time (depending on what our accountant says). We'll bend the rules depending on circumstances, but basic…

Interesting, and I'm not saying this doesn't work, but doesn't that basically imply you only hire those who are already unemployed?

Employed people would probably take a week of vacation unless they have FU money.

Re: Train before you hire

#20

Post by ktsmith » Tue, Jan 25, 2011, 6:11 AM UTC

listrophy wrote: post #18

ktsmith wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we don't hire you, we pay you as a contractor for your time. If we do hire you, we pay you either as an employee or contractor for your time (depending on what our accountant says). If you are in the U.S. I hope you've had this hiring process reviewed by your legal counsel. Given the brief description above you are quite possibly violating several federal employment laws in addition to IRS rules on what constitu…

Unless you're a lawyer providing counsel, I'm quite certain we're solid. That's not to say I'm right... I'm just fairly confident. We send out the necessary W-9s and everything. Effectively, our candidates are freelancers until we hire them... and we pay our freelancers according to IRS rules.

I said up front that I hoped you've reviewed your hiring process with your legal counsel. That should have been pretty clear to you that I'm not providing you any legal advice. I also noted that I was commenting on your brief description of the process.

You now update to say you pay your "freelancers" however in your first post you say you take your accountants advice on paying as an employee or a contractor. Those are two extremely different things and back dating employment (via pay as an employee during the trial period) would have the end result of your company incurring liability for failing to complete employment paperwork in a timely manner among other things. You could also open yourself to liability for discrimination and other issues if you tried to pay someone as an employee, started the hiring paperwork and then found out the individual did not have valid work authorization.

Just to say it one more time so there's no confusion. This is not legal advice. Anyone considering anything in the content of this message or implementing the parent posters hiring process should speak to legal counsel before doing so.