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Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

keavy.com

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Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#61
post #13
post #3

This is bad advice. If you are hitting 40's, please do yourself a favor and go into management. Yes coding is fun but, 1. Not being able to change jobs because you can't invert a binary tree in 20 secs in leetcode hazing, is not fun. 2. Being managed by someone a decade younger than you with no family or responsibilities, is not fun. 3. Spending your weekends learning the latest JS framework because you don't want to…

> Spending your weekends learning the latest JS framework because you don't want to be someone "who doesn't keep up", is not fun. It's not about JS frameworks, but if you don't keep up with technology _because it's fun_; and you also what to be promoted very high on the ladder (aren't happy with "just" an average job with average pay that lets you have a decent life outside work) by all means do yourself a favor and…

>> because you can't invert a binary tree in 20 secs in leetcode

> It's a simple recursion. why wouldn't I be able to do it? I fully expect to solve algorithms & data structures questions into my 60s faster than the average 20yo can (because of my background. Point is, it doesn't correlate with age, if you can't do it at 40 you probably weren't great at it at 20).

My main problem is that I look like an idiot while writing code. I pointy-clicky navigate too much for many's taste—doubly so when someone's watching because I start second-guessing every keystroke and so avoid keyboard navigation—and tend not to remember much about languages I haven't written a ton of within the last 48hrs, and even then if it's some feature or function I haven't used in a couple weeks I'll either look it up or poke and prod my way to the correct syntax ("it's either this way or that way... OK, red squigglies, must be that way" or "I think null can just be used as falsy but undefined is gonna throw in this language? Yep, there it is, cool, I'll guard it then" or I'll not be 100% sure about the order of arguments for a "map" function even if I used it ten times yesterday and I'll look at the IDE's hint to get it right, stuff like that). I'm much better at the "what" and "why" than the "how", without support from tools and the freedom to faff about a bit, unselfconsciously.

All that's even worse on a whiteboard, of course. If someone bet me $100 I couldn't write a solution to fizzbuzz on a whiteboard in any language of my choice, that'd compile if input verbatim, without looking up some stuff in the couple minutes before doing it, I would not take that bet. There's a decent chance I'd manage, but I quite literally would not bet on it.

I mean I've been (technically) designing & shipping software for pay for a long time and everyone's always told me I'm pretty friggin' good at it. I've often been the go-to guy for weird crap and "hard" problems. But I look like a total dipshit who doesn't know anything and probably wrote my first "hello world" last week, if you watch me do it in interview conditions. I pretty much only have a career in software at all because not every place does those.

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#62
post #4

In my experience, many companies legitimately don't really know what to do with very senior engineering staff. And how many distinguished engineers or principal engineers or technical fellows do you really need for your relatively straightforward technical challenges anyway? The IC track often fails to work in practice for the simple reason that technical work at an extremely high level is just not needed at many com…

> But sometimes all you need is to be able to assign someone to a specific project that isn't all that glorious or interesting or hard but is valuable and needs to be done by a certain time There's a lot of business value in certainty. The value of the senior IC is the certainty that your business critical project will get completed correctly and on time. Sort of like how you want a good electrician to work on your h…

That's just a solid senior engineer, though. You don't need a Senior Distinguished Technical Fellow to come to your house for some electrical work. That's the person you have designing the electrical grid for a city of 5 million people.

I guess if you have a lot of title inflation things might be different. I've definitely seen places where a senior developer is pretty much anyone 2-3 years out of school who does a decent job but still requires supervision and oversight.

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#63
post #30
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying but at 35 haven't formally held a title that meant I was leading others. Every posting even for a team lead wants 3 years or 5 years or whatever of leadership already, and that's not even really a management position most places. An MBA and re-entering at the bottom would be very expensive, in direct costs and lost wages. What's the way in? Hope you find yourself in a job where there are leadership positio…

What's the way in? Hope you find yourself in a job where there are leadership positions open and the stars align and you're promoted into one? In corporate jobs, this is rarely the way in. Most likely, you'll have to convince your current manager (and maybe theirs) that you're ready to be a manager and look for a manager opening elsewhere in the company. If you think you're ready and your current employer does not, y…

> In corporate jobs, this is rarely the way in. Most likely, you'll have to convince your current manager (and maybe theirs) that you're ready to be a manager and look for a manager opening elsewhere in the company.

Also, get ready for a lot of gatekeeping. “Oh, you don’t really want to be a manager! It’s so much more responsibility and work. You should be happy to be a foot soldier for the rest of your career! Management is not all it’s cracked up to be. As you can see I’m stressed all the time! Now excuse me, I have to go close on my second vacation home in Hawaii.”

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#64
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the way in? Hope you find yourself in a job where there are leadership positions open and the stars align and you're promoted into one? In corporate jobs, this is rarely the way in. Most likely, you'll have to convince your current manager (and maybe theirs) that you're ready to be a manager and look for a manager opening elsewhere in the company. If you think you're ready and your current employer does not, y…

> If you think you're ready and your current employer does not, you'll have to look outside. Is it even possible to find a management position outside without management experience?

I’ve faced the typical deadlock that first time job seekers encounter: you need management experience to get hired as a manager, but nobody will give you a chance to get management experience because you’ve never managed before.

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#65
post #3

This is bad advice. If you are hitting 40's, please do yourself a favor and go into management. Yes coding is fun but, 1. Not being able to change jobs because you can't invert a binary tree in 20 secs in leetcode hazing, is not fun. 2. Being managed by someone a decade younger than you with no family or responsibilities, is not fun. 3. Spending your weekends learning the latest JS framework because you don't want to…

In my own experience, the biggest "killer" is that it just gets boring and repetitive.

I've been programming for 20 years and it is a struggle for me to find something "new" that isn't a mild variation of something I've used before..

There's only so many variations of an application that can bring something really new to the table that gives you that excitement of learning something new like the first time you "get" TDD or DDD, or that first time you successfully implement an efficient CQRS model, with eventually consistent events, or run a GraphQL API that swaps the challenges of REST for a new set of problems and so on. Switching industries doesn't help much either, as they are either just more of the same but with different vernacular, or so niche that you'll need to have really been there since day dot of your career anyway.

There's only so many new libraries/frameworks that I can get excited about, and the rapid state of change in many ecosystems means that quota is pretty much full 100% of the time. Languages, too. That's before we even tackle the problem of getting _hired_ for languages I've not had any professional experience with, and with the added bonus of 0 personal time to implement side-projects, and a lot of companies never needing to stray from their current stack.. it's just not going to happen.

So now the only thing left that tickles my fancy are the "abstract" problems.

Instead of now focusing on implementing code to fix a problem, I'm asking and researching the questions like "How can the platform (and not just application) be more performant?" or "What is that the team can improve on?" and "how can I improve the learning culture?" etc. and using my experience to, at first, recognise these problems that are invisible to a lot of people, but also gauge which ones are actual problems or mild inconveniences.

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my early 40s, I am starting to reluctantly wonder if this is true after all. I don't like it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not true. Another point is: In many/most actual organizations, it's the people managers making strategic technical decisions, not anyone on any other track.

"it's the people managers making strategic technical decisions" I'm 54 and I'm pleased to say that I've never worked anywhere where that was the general rule - I've always been on the "technical leadership" side of things (CTO/Head of Architecture) since my 20s and I pretty much see my job as ensuring that "strategic technical decisions" get made in the right way.

As CTO, did you have direct reports? If so, you were a people manager and:

> "it's the people managers making strategic technical decisions"

...was true in your case.

In my experience (over 2 decades now, wow I can’t believe it) the people making the broad, strategic decisions and influencing outside of their orgs all happen to also have direct reports and usually those reports are people managers too. They have titles like “director” and “VP” and “CTO”. How many of those people have you seen who are individual contributors?

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#67
post #3

This is bad advice. If you are hitting 40's, please do yourself a favor and go into management. Yes coding is fun but, 1. Not being able to change jobs because you can't invert a binary tree in 20 secs in leetcode hazing, is not fun. 2. Being managed by someone a decade younger than you with no family or responsibilities, is not fun. 3. Spending your weekends learning the latest JS framework because you don't want to…

As usual, you have to scroll down to the negative voted comments to get the brutal truth. Ignore the happy-talk, this comment is right on the money.

If you’re in your 40s or 50s and not in a role where you’re “influencing decisions outside your own team” you’ll soon be in for a shock next (or next next) job interview.

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#68
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But sometimes all you need is to be able to assign someone to a specific project that isn't all that glorious or interesting or hard but is valuable and needs to be done by a certain time There's a lot of business value in certainty. The value of the senior IC is the certainty that your business critical project will get completed correctly and on time. Sort of like how you want a good electrician to work on your h…

That's just a solid senior engineer, though. You don't need a Senior Distinguished Technical Fellow to come to your house for some electrical work. That's the person you have designing the electrical grid for a city of 5 million people. I guess if you have a lot of title inflation things might be different. I've definitely seen places where a senior developer is pretty much anyone 2-3 years out of school who does a d…

That depends. For example my company we are trying to move all of our infrastructure to kubernetes, and we are trying to hire a very senior IC who can lead it.

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#69
This is a problem I have thought about over my career. The TLDR; You definitely need senior level engineers (Principal's & Above) as a career track in a healthy organization.

Here is why - (for the sake of discussion, "principals" refers to principals and above)

- In an org, lets say as a director, I find I rely on my principal engineers to objectively tell me what the right thing to do is. They have less political motivation.

- Principal engineers almost unilaterally have a series of noteworthy accomplishments that create a catalyst for innovation for all engineers around. The depth they create inspires people to really understand tech.

- Discussions with them require managers to have more depth themselves. Rarely can managers win arguments without brushing up on tech.

- Regarding some comments about "CRUD apps" as universal easy things all engineers can solve I find perplexing. Problems in distributed systems are all trying to make CRUD possible and organizations are still figuring out how to do that at scale.

- Regarding arguments about ageism for principals, yes, I agree that ageism exists to a certain degree. However, I find most principal engineers are older as you go up the chain. Therefore, what you are really saying is ageism exists for engineers < principal level. Where you can have new hires know the same depth as them and pay less for. Can you imagine trying to hire folks that built S3, Python, Kafka, etc. be replaceable by younger folks?

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#70
post #4

In my experience, many companies legitimately don't really know what to do with very senior engineering staff. And how many distinguished engineers or principal engineers or technical fellows do you really need for your relatively straightforward technical challenges anyway? The IC track often fails to work in practice for the simple reason that technical work at an extremely high level is just not needed at many com…

I'd say that 80% of the time, the IC track is bad for the ambitious, non-consulting engineer ultimately, unless your plan is to move around alot, which is a strategy that gets riskier as you get older and better compensated. Even for the consultant, the path to growth is... hiring people and leveraging their labors! End of the day, the size of your tribe or budget is a physical manifestation of your power in an organ…

This is an excellent point. About 80% of the time, this is how it plays out in most larger orgs.

The interesting thing is what happens in mid size to smaller companies, where organization structures are not as well defined. You still need people here, however, if you know the stack very well or are a proficient IC, you can make contributions that can have a significant impact on the org, and gain the trust and allegiance of many engineers, albeit informally.

I've seen this happen a lot. A senior engineer will either create or integrate a new tool or process which makes life easier for other teams. They are grateful to the person and are much more willing to hear the engineer out for future designs and projects.

All that to say... just having a title doesn't get you anywhere. You have to build trust by delivering value, however incrementally. Maybe this is really trivial stuff, IDK.

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