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Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

keavy.com

11–20 of 139 posts

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#11

In my company there is a technical path but it’s really really hard to advance on it compared to the managerial path. We have one guy who is really high on the technical path but he was director before and was a bad manager so they moved him to the technical path. Otherwise I haven’t seen anybody technical promoted beyond the same pay grade of the lowest ranked managers. So it seems to me that the manager path is bet…

IME (21-yr career), there's a huge range wrt culture, power structure, and growth oppty across different kinds of companies. The biggest / most relevant diff rel to technical path is btwn orgs that are engineering-driven vs product-driven (except when said product is in a highly technical domain). Maybe obvious, sharing in case it's not.

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#12
post #3

This is bad advice. If you are hitting 40's, please do yourself a favor and go into management. Yes coding is fun but, 1. Not being able to change jobs because you can't invert a binary tree in 20 secs in leetcode hazing, is not fun. 2. Being managed by someone a decade younger than you with no family or responsibilities, is not fun. 3. Spending your weekends learning the latest JS framework because you don't want to…

> 4. Being paid less than the lowest grade manager, is not fun .

If this is the case, your company's technical leadership track has a broken pay structure. You shouldn't need to go into management to get paid better.

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#13
post #3

This is bad advice. If you are hitting 40's, please do yourself a favor and go into management. Yes coding is fun but, 1. Not being able to change jobs because you can't invert a binary tree in 20 secs in leetcode hazing, is not fun. 2. Being managed by someone a decade younger than you with no family or responsibilities, is not fun. 3. Spending your weekends learning the latest JS framework because you don't want to…

> Spending your weekends learning the latest JS framework because you don't want to be someone "who doesn't keep up", is not fun.

It's not about JS frameworks, but if you don't keep up with technology _because it's fun_; and you also what to be promoted very high on the ladder (aren't happy with "just" an average job with average pay that lets you have a decent life outside work) by all means do yourself a favor and move to management.

> because you can't invert a binary tree in 20 secs in leetcode

It's a simple recursion. why wouldn't I be able to do it? I fully expect to solve algorithms & data structures questions into my 60s faster than the average 20yo can (because of my background. Point is, it doesn't correlate with age, if you can't do it at 40 you probably weren't great at it at 20).

> 2. Being managed by someone a decade younger than you with no family or responsibilities, is not fun.

I've been managed by former students. Worked out quite fine for me. Why wouldn't it? Age does not equal competence.... I'd rather be managed by a competent young guy than an incompetent senior. (bad managers are no fun, that I agree; but bad managers are not necessarily young; and young managers are not necessarily bad)

> Being paid less than the lowest grade manager, is not fun.

Being paid less than what you're happy with is no fun. But it's not really required.

> do you really need 20 yrs of coding experience to write CRUD apps

So don't write CRUD apps if you're better than that.

> What exactly are you bringing to the table.

In general, knowing what NOT to do. Finding out & solving the right problem, not the one that was given to me.

> There is no such thing as "IC track" for almost every one of us,

If that were true, it all becomes a huge pyramidal scheme (you constantly need more young developers so that you can manage them as existing workforce ages).

I'll give you that: for most people, it's probably easier to advance on the management track than it is on the IC track. And the IC track in many companies is a joke (if you're not at the headquarters, advancing is an order of magnitude harder; also you advance easier by playing the advancement game than by being competent in what you do - but that may be true for management too). So yeah, it's not for everybody. But OTOH, middle management sucks... big time. For some people, it may be a good deal to sacrifice some cache upside than to turn into something they don't want to be. It all boils down to what you want to optimize. If you're happy with a good income, even if it's not the best that you could possibly achieve, IC track might be an option (still, change companies every now and then. It's much easier to promote this way).

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#14
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's questionable to me whether an engineering manager can stay out of the technical side completely and actually be competent at their job. I think many non-managers underestimate how technical engineering management actually is. You often have to have a solid understanding of a very wide swathe of the organization's technology, including services whose code you haven't even had a chance to work on. In some ways it'…

I always take it as a red flag when a manager wants to be responsible for technical decisions. The best managers I've worked with have always made it their mission to serve technical teams by removing obstacles and making sure that the specialists have everything they need in order to create a high quality product. Managers who try to babysit developers and tell them how to do their jobs tend to just slow things down…

I think that being involved in the technical side and "babysitting developers" are two very different ideas that have little to nothing to do with each other.

> The best managers I've worked with have always made it their mission to serve technical teams by removing obstacles and making sure that the specialists have everything they need in order to create a high quality product.

I think you're underestimating the degree to which doing this requires a solid technical understanding when there are dozens of teams involved and interacting with each other. In order for an engineering manager to bring their team(s) a clear plan of what needs to be done with few blockers or obstacles in the way, often a lot of technical planning with other groups has to precede that. As always, management done right is the sort of management you don't notice -- but that doesn't mean a ton of work isn't happening behind the scenes to make things very organized and clear for individual developers. You could have ICs do that, but they wouldn't be writing much if any code, and they probably wouldn't want to anyway.

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#15
post #3

This is bad advice. If you are hitting 40's, please do yourself a favor and go into management. Yes coding is fun but, 1. Not being able to change jobs because you can't invert a binary tree in 20 secs in leetcode hazing, is not fun. 2. Being managed by someone a decade younger than you with no family or responsibilities, is not fun. 3. Spending your weekends learning the latest JS framework because you don't want to…

I'm trying but at 35 haven't formally held a title that meant I was leading others. Every posting even for a team lead wants 3 years or 5 years or whatever of leadership already, and that's not even really a management position most places. An MBA and re-entering at the bottom would be very expensive, in direct costs and lost wages.

What's the way in? Hope you find yourself in a job where there are leadership positions open and the stars align and you're promoted into one?

And you're dead right, not every place is Google or whatever. Hell I don't think Google's Google, mostly, in terms of what they actually do, but they do pay developers very well regardless, so there's that. But outside a handful of huge pure-tech companies and Wall Street, you better be moving out of development by 40 or so (earlier if you can swing it, really—god I wish I'd started making moves this way years ago), or your career's (pay's) in for a brief flat trajectory followed by a sharp drop way before you'd have liked.

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#16
post #3

This is bad advice. If you are hitting 40's, please do yourself a favor and go into management. Yes coding is fun but, 1. Not being able to change jobs because you can't invert a binary tree in 20 secs in leetcode hazing, is not fun. 2. Being managed by someone a decade younger than you with no family or responsibilities, is not fun. 3. Spending your weekends learning the latest JS framework because you don't want to…

[deleted]

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#17
post #3

This is bad advice. If you are hitting 40's, please do yourself a favor and go into management. Yes coding is fun but, 1. Not being able to change jobs because you can't invert a binary tree in 20 secs in leetcode hazing, is not fun. 2. Being managed by someone a decade younger than you with no family or responsibilities, is not fun. 3. Spending your weekends learning the latest JS framework because you don't want to…

> 4. Being paid less than the lowest grade manager, is not fun . If this is the case, your company's technical leadership track has a broken pay structure. You shouldn't need to go into management to get paid better.

That’s the reality in most companies.

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#18
post #3

This is bad advice. If you are hitting 40's, please do yourself a favor and go into management. Yes coding is fun but, 1. Not being able to change jobs because you can't invert a binary tree in 20 secs in leetcode hazing, is not fun. 2. Being managed by someone a decade younger than you with no family or responsibilities, is not fun. 3. Spending your weekends learning the latest JS framework because you don't want to…

In my early 40s, I am starting to reluctantly wonder if this is true after all. I don't like it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not true. Another point is: In many/most actual organizations, it's the people managers making strategic technical decisions, not anyone on any other track.

IME skill-stacking (and including something rel to people / human interaction in your wheelhouse) is the best path to [power / authority / autonomy / clout / leverage]. It doesn't have to be binary "tech or mgmt". But you're absolutely right; companies are groups of people. If your role is such that your influence doesn't extend beyond what you can personally code, your sphere of influence (and career opportunities) will by definition be limited. This can be mitigated by eg explicitly developing skills of presentation and persuasion... but if you work somewhere that has other employees, and don't want to get stuck in a downstream role slinging code, there is no alternative to learning and mastering the [human] interface to the rest of the company.

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#19
post #4

In my experience, many companies legitimately don't really know what to do with very senior engineering staff. And how many distinguished engineers or principal engineers or technical fellows do you really need for your relatively straightforward technical challenges anyway? The IC track often fails to work in practice for the simple reason that technical work at an extremely high level is just not needed at many com…

My experience has been that the value of very senior technical staff is not that they solve "extremely high level" technical problems but they are very easily able to see how what appears to be a complex problem is isomorphic to a much simpler, easy to solve problem.

The difference between expert and advanced/intermediate technical staff is that the advanced engineer has an understanding of complex solution and mistakenly tries to apply them everywhere, so the net effect is to increase complexity. The expert typically sees simple solutions and method of resolving complexity and has a net effect of reducing overall system complexity.

Believing that the value add of experienced technical staff is to only solve really hard problem is likely caused by having too many advanced/intermediate people playing the role of experienced technical leads. All of the great technical team member I worked with always make call solutions simpler and easier to implement by knowing exactly what doesn't need to be done and what is essential.

Re: Thriving on the Technical Leadership Path

#20
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's questionable to me whether an engineering manager can stay out of the technical side completely and actually be competent at their job. I think many non-managers underestimate how technical engineering management actually is. You often have to have a solid understanding of a very wide swathe of the organization's technology, including services whose code you haven't even had a chance to work on. In some ways it'…

I always take it as a red flag when a manager wants to be responsible for technical decisions. The best managers I've worked with have always made it their mission to serve technical teams by removing obstacles and making sure that the specialists have everything they need in order to create a high quality product. Managers who try to babysit developers and tell them how to do their jobs tend to just slow things down…

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