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1.5M Packages a Day Bring Chaos to NYC Streets

nytimes.com

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Re: 1.5M Packages a Day Bring Chaos to NYC Streets

#81

Post by Spooky23 »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #39
Spooky23 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are they supposed to do? There’s a difference between the letter of the law and reality. You need deliveries and couriers to make a city work, and NYC is no different.

Problem is that only people or companies with deep pockets can violate the law that way. If you don’t have money for lawyers you have to pay the tickets. That’s how end up with a two class society where some people are above the law.

Oh no, there are plenty of loopholes. It’s actually easier for a shady operator to operate than a legit one, deep pockets or not!

Parking tickets are tagged to a car, not the owner. So when you don’t pay in NY, your registration is suspended. Guess what? Bad operators don’t register in NY! (Rental/Lease fleets are registered in Arizona and Indiana, who are “business friendly” for this reason.)

Legit companies get a type of permit that can be suspended. But your shady contract delivery people flaunt these rules and disappear/reincorporate if they get caught.

That’s why the Amazons of the world are moving away from UPS/USPS/Fedex. The contract people are the bottom rung of society and agree (out of ignorance) to take on liability that an actual business would price into their rates. (This includes stuff like making sure the brakes work on the truck or that the driver is licensed, not just parking tickets)

Re: 1.5M Packages a Day Bring Chaos to NYC Streets

#82

Post by jacques_chester »

partisan wrote: post #74
crazygringo wrote: post #40

The problem isn't trucks -- obviously, it's hugely more efficient for a single truck+driver to deliver 100's of packages in a single day than for 100's of individual people to spend an hour each going to/from a store, and even worse for congestion if even more than a few are taking individual vehicles. The problem is parking. And the solution is obvious: multiple truck-length parking spaces along each and every block…

Your solution is effectively corporate welfare. The free market should determine whether customers will order packages or not. Also, you are suggesting that the government should provide an easier means for businesses to serve their customers in a way that gives them an advantage over the local businesses that pay local taxes on purchases. The real solution is to make delivery companies pay for the congestion they ca…

> Your solution is effectively corporate welfare.

The current state of affairs is corporate welfare too. With an added side helping of externalities imposed on other traffic.

I think you're touching on the fact that all road surfaces in NYC are a massive net wealth transfer to those who drive on them or (especially) park on them.

I agree. Either charge the full economic rate for use of the road, or turn it over to public transport, or some mix of these.

Re: 1.5M Packages a Day Bring Chaos to NYC Streets

#83

Post by CydeWeys »

steelframe wrote: post #78
CydeWeys wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the city's responsibility (and in its best interests) to create a safe, effective transportation network that moves as many people as efficiently as possible. The better the transportation network of a city runs, the better that city will be, as less time is wasted in transit and jobs are performed more efficiently, and more taxes are paid and more businesses and people move in. It is simply physically impossibl…

> is putting in dozens of miles of new protected bike lanes each year as part of the long-running Vision Zero initiative. "Protected bike lanes"... aren't. Because they share intersections with motor vehicles, left-hooks and right-hooks still happen, which together constitute the majority of bicyclist-motorist collisions. A transition to a better transportation system can't happen a few bike lanes at a time. Society…

I agree with you that there's much, much more we could be doing, and that we should be prioritizing the completion of a maximally-protected bike network across NYC vs the patchwork that we have now.

But we're still at least doing something, more than any other city in the US, and it's a clearly stated priority of the city government. So, in that context, and in the context of the person I was replying to, it's absurd to blame someone for taking the government at its word and using the kinds of scaleable, non-polluting, lower negative externality transportation options whose use is explicitly being encouraged by the city.

When someone chooses to bike instead of drive, that's better for everyone around them, including drivers. You aren't contributing to worsening traffic, you aren't emitting particulate pollution that messes up people's lungs, and you're much less likely to seriously harm or kill someone on a bike than in a car. What rankles me is the guy who's saying it's OK if things are set up to discourage that choice.

Re: 1.5M Packages a Day Bring Chaos to NYC Streets

#84

Post by mieseratte »

partisan wrote: post #74
crazygringo wrote: post #40

The problem isn't trucks -- obviously, it's hugely more efficient for a single truck+driver to deliver 100's of packages in a single day than for 100's of individual people to spend an hour each going to/from a store, and even worse for congestion if even more than a few are taking individual vehicles. The problem is parking. And the solution is obvious: multiple truck-length parking spaces along each and every block…

Your solution is effectively corporate welfare. The free market should determine whether customers will order packages or not. Also, you are suggesting that the government should provide an easier means for businesses to serve their customers in a way that gives them an advantage over the local businesses that pay local taxes on purchases. The real solution is to make delivery companies pay for the congestion they ca…

Or create the aforementioned delivery / pickup parking and charge a fee for their use.

Gives citizens what they want, puts cost on the delivery services for their externalities, and doesn't engage in protectionism for local businesses.

Re: 1.5M Packages a Day Bring Chaos to NYC Streets

#85

Post by CydeWeys »

steelframe wrote: post #75
CydeWeys wrote: post #5

A few thoughts as a bike commuter in Manhattan who sees this first hand every day: The congestion tax can't come soon enough (and it should have no carve-outs, certainly not for people who live here). We need to get rid of lots of free on-street parking in the city and replace it with loading zones so that taxis/Ubers and trucks have free spaces on every block to conduct their business without blocking travel lanes o…

> Here's a truck I reported in the bike lane that's closing in on a thousand tickets Someone else on this thread asked how they are supposed to move in or move out of their apartment without getting a ticket. I responded that they can't; it's just part of the cost of picking up or delivering things in midtown. This truck with almost 1,000 tickets serves as pretty solid evidence that there's a standing agreement betwe…

It's not just a monetary cost though, it's a real cost in human life that adds up throughout the year. The status quo isn't acceptable and must be changed (which you seem to agree with). The most obvious way to do so would be to get rid of free on-street parking and add in lots of loading-only zones.

Re: 1.5M Packages a Day Bring Chaos to NYC Streets

#86

Post by MiroF »

jacques_chester wrote: post #82
partisan wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your solution is effectively corporate welfare. The free market should determine whether customers will order packages or not. Also, you are suggesting that the government should provide an easier means for businesses to serve their customers in a way that gives them an advantage over the local businesses that pay local taxes on purchases. The real solution is to make delivery companies pay for the congestion they ca…

> Your solution is effectively corporate welfare. The current state of affairs is corporate welfare too. With an added side helping of externalities imposed on other traffic. I think you're touching on the fact that all road surfaces in NYC are a massive net wealth transfer to those who drive on them or (especially) park on them. I agree. Either charge the full economic rate for use of the road, or turn it over to pu…

We should be phasing out roads for non-delivery traffic in urban areas anyways.

Re: 1.5M Packages a Day Bring Chaos to NYC Streets

#87

Post by MiroF »

nradov wrote: post #73
crazygringo wrote: post #40

The problem isn't trucks -- obviously, it's hugely more efficient for a single truck+driver to deliver 100's of packages in a single day than for 100's of individual people to spend an hour each going to/from a store, and even worse for congestion if even more than a few are taking individual vehicles. The problem is parking. And the solution is obvious: multiple truck-length parking spaces along each and every block…

Less urgent deliveries could presumably be batched together, resulting in fewer trucks on the road.

They could also be done during the night.

Re: 1.5M Packages a Day Bring Chaos to NYC Streets

#89

Post by xxpor »

steelframe wrote: post #78
CydeWeys wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the city's responsibility (and in its best interests) to create a safe, effective transportation network that moves as many people as efficiently as possible. The better the transportation network of a city runs, the better that city will be, as less time is wasted in transit and jobs are performed more efficiently, and more taxes are paid and more businesses and people move in. It is simply physically impossibl…

> is putting in dozens of miles of new protected bike lanes each year as part of the long-running Vision Zero initiative. "Protected bike lanes"... aren't. Because they share intersections with motor vehicles, left-hooks and right-hooks still happen, which together constitute the majority of bicyclist-motorist collisions. A transition to a better transportation system can't happen a few bike lanes at a time. Society…

>"Protected bike lanes"... aren't. Because they share intersections with motor vehicles, left-hooks and right-hooks still happen, which together constitute the majority of bicyclist-motorist collisions.

Part of installing protected bike lanes should be installing arrows and bike signals so there's a separate phase to make a turn.

See 2nd Ave in Seattle:

https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6074569,-122.3372911,3a,42.9...

Re: 1.5M Packages a Day Bring Chaos to NYC Streets

#90

Post by SamReidHughes »

jacques_chester wrote: post #82
partisan wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your solution is effectively corporate welfare. The free market should determine whether customers will order packages or not. Also, you are suggesting that the government should provide an easier means for businesses to serve their customers in a way that gives them an advantage over the local businesses that pay local taxes on purchases. The real solution is to make delivery companies pay for the congestion they ca…

> Your solution is effectively corporate welfare. The current state of affairs is corporate welfare too. With an added side helping of externalities imposed on other traffic. I think you're touching on the fact that all road surfaces in NYC are a massive net wealth transfer to those who drive on them or (especially) park on them. I agree. Either charge the full economic rate for use of the road, or turn it over to pu…

It's not really corporate welfare, because delivery companies are in competition and the cost savings get passed on to the consumer. It's a subsidy.
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