Live data from Hacker News

Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them in secrecy

eff.org

61–70 of 76 posts

Re: Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them in secrecy

#61
post #28

> A 2012 study found that notorious patent troll Intellectual Ventures divides its portfolio among over 1000 different shell companies. Someone, somewhere must have written the "SELECT shell_company_id ..." query that ensures the correct company is put on the litigation letter. If you ever find yourself in that situation, stop and think for a second about what you are doing.

Don't know where you're going with this, but my brain assumes that it is a new patent for a method of managing shell companies to enforce patents.

Re: Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them in secrecy

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, a granted patent includes a list of citations, and the presumption is that the office has found that the cited works are not disqualifying prior art. A published patent is assumed to not be self-disqualifying. I'm not a patent lawyer, but I've been involved in this stuff, often conducting extensive prior art searches. The gold standard for prior art is a single document that teaches everything in the claims o…

Thank you for your reply, it does actually change how I see the prior art thing played out. > Often, folks think that they've found prior art if they find one thing in one document and another thing elsewhere. Nope. Still, I think there must be something profoundly broken if you find the exact math in an old book, and the new patent basically says, "do that math on a computer".

I'd be inclined to agree with you. In fact, as I understand it there are new rules that specifically address so called "with a computer" patents. You weren't supposed to be able to patent a math formula, so instead, people would patent a machine that carries out a math formula.

Re: Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them in secrecy

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same software that is regularly reverse-engineered and made useless within six months of release?

Illegally, unfortunately :/

Just say you did the research in Estonia. Reverse engineering for the purpose of compatibility with other software is techically always allowed.

Re: Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them in secrecy

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my understanding the US is now on a first-to-file system.

Apparently it's first inventor to file, though I'm not entirely clear on what that means.

Or the first person who has the money to file even if he or she only saw some kids invention on YouTube and got to the patent office first.

Re: Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them in secrecy

#65
post #4

Patents are primarily about getting a limited time monopoly. Publicly disclosing the invention is just a direct consequence and not a virtue of the patent system. So please stop marketing it like that. In many cases it is completely irrelevant because the invention is sold and can be reverse engineered. Also: > Encouraging people to share information so that others can use it to make further advances is the whole poi…

> Patents are primarily about getting a limited time monopoly. Nope. Patents have always been about encouraging public disclosure of secrets. This has been the case since they were invented by the Venetians in order to break trade guilds and their literal on-pain-of-death secret maintenance. The idea was to offer the secret-holder a deal: if you reveal your secret, you get a significant but temporary government-enfor…

Well over 100,000 utility patents get granted every year in the US alone [1]. Care to show me all the secrets we would been unable to reverse engineer or independently invent without the patent system?

[1] https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/us_stat.ht...

Re: Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them in secrecy

#67
post #16

> In exchange for the right to sue others to stop using the invention, patent applicants have to disclose enough information about their invention to allow others in the field to make and use it. This seems unnecessarily stiffling. Can't we change this so that anyone can still use the patented tech, but at a reasonable price?

This is how it works for standard-essential patents. Google FRAND licensing to read more.

Re: Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them in secrecy

#68
Can someone on HN recommend a patent attorney that works with early stage startups? I'm self-funded and want to protect the novel work I've done in the signal processing domain from being copied by a big player with deeper pockets. If I don't protect myself a team of domain expert engineers could duplicate my work.

Re: Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them in secrecy

#69
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the specification is not enabling and novel to one skilled in the art (much less obvious), then it is not valid. Under rexam or court proceedings they will be worth the paper they're printed on. That's an expensive way to determine things, but it sounds like that particular section of art at the patent office isn't doing much. On the other hand they only have to hide one novel idea and unique claim in the list to…

When you go to court, the presumption is that the patent is valid. The judge is unlikely to be technical, and he must assume the experts at the patent office did their job. Since the patent office basically rubber stamps anything you send to them, it's a very uphill battle to start with. In my case, we submitted lots of prior art (some over 100 years old) to the court, and of course they shared this with the plaintif…

This very recent case was similar: https://www.eagleview.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Order-g...

The jury found that the plaintiffs patents for measuring roofs on aerial imagery were valid, even though every photogrammetrist in the world would say otherwise. Hopefully they'll appeal and have better council...

Re: Patents are about sharing information – don't shroud them in secrecy

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my understanding the US is now on a first-to-file system.

Apparently it's first inventor to file, though I'm not entirely clear on what that means.

The main difference between the USA's "first inventor to file" and the "first to file" systems in most of the rest of the world is how disclosing the invention publicly by printed publication, use, or sale before you apply for a patent affects patent eligibility.

In the "first to file" systems, you lose eligibility. In the "first inventor to file" system of the US, you have a grace period of one year from such disclosure before you lose eligibility, just like you did under the prior "first to invent" system.

To a decent first approximation, the change to the US system mostly just affects how things are handled if independent inventors try to patent the same thing.

Under the "first to invent" system, the patent went to whichever applicant invented the thing first. But when is something invented? When you first think of the idea? Or when you have reduced the idea to practice? Or sometime in between?

Under the US first to invent system, it was when you conceived the invention if you then worked diligently from that point to reduction to practice. If you stop so working and resume, your lose the prior invention date and your new invention date is when you resumed working diligently on reduction to practice.

When two or more inventors were claiming the same invention determining who was actually first under those rules could be difficult and messy, requiring hearings, and costing the inventors money for attorneys. Now with first inventor to file, we pretty much don't care who thought of it first--we just care which person who independently thought of it reduced it to practice and submitted their patent application first. That's a lot simpler, and requires no expensive hearings.

Post reply on HN