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Supercritical CO2 is heavy like a liquid, with weird and useful properties

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Re: Supercritical CO2 is heavy like a liquid, with weird and useful properties

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Super critical co2 is also used for caffeine extraction in coffee, and its safer solvent for cannabis extracts and concentrates. I would never buy cbd products unless they are lab tested with a GC for contaminates and extracted with co2.

Look into USP-grade acetone-extracted cannabinoids. Acetone is 100% VOC so it will evaporate away cleanly without needing a vacuum purge (I'd still heat it to 135F to boil off the acetone which boils at ~133F) and your body naturally produces it in small amounts, so a tiny bit of contamination isn't going to be likely to cause damage. It is cheap to obtain vs. compressed CO2 (the cost of the equipment required for CO…

Take a look at the USP Acetone specification, it does not indicate definite ideal suitability for the task:

https://greenfield.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Spec-Sheet...

This fungible specification has no specific limit for Diacetone Alcohol content, a common impurity and one which increases during storage.

Diacetone Alcohol is an industrial solvent with properties of its own, not nearly as low-boiling as Acetone. Clean Diacetone Alcohol will also show negligible Residue After Evaporation and Non-Volatile Residue under conditions of the tests, which report mostly solids content along with many higher-boiling liquid impurities but not components as moderately volatile as Diacetone Alcohol itself.

However Diacetone Alcohol can still be a significant component of the extract once the bulk Acetone has fully evaporated, depending on the conditions of the processing. Rotovap would help a lot and more than 135F would reduce residual solvent better from a viscous matrix.

The USP Purity minimum of 99.5 basically means that the water content plus any other chemical impurities such as Iso-Propyl Alcohol & Methanol (specified) and implying things like Diacetone Alcohol or Benzene, etc (but unspecified) must not add up to more than 0.5 percent.

You might even prefer to explicitly specify a maximum limit For some other target toxins, less than some low detectable amount if you were picky.

Some legitimate laboratories may not be able to detect the difference between Acetone which contains unlisted impurities and that where it is negligible.

Take a look at the associated weaselwords from legal:

https://greenfield.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/OVI-Residu...

Which references this as the closest applicable guideline, even though it was intended to apply to the residual solvent content of pharmaceutical products not solvents themselves:

https://www.uspnf.com/sites/default/files/usp_pdf/EN/USPNF/g...

Better than nothing but not as cautious as it could be. You may want fewer impurities than marginal drug companies anyway, you're allowed to do that. This particular supplier does look nicely better than marginal, which is good, with typicals looking well better than the limit.

Regardless with two lots of USP Acetone having apparently identically suitable certificates, one may result in its Diacetone Alcohol or other not-so-volatile components comprising a significant portion of the extract, while the other lot would not, under the same solvent-removal conditions which are excellent for the latter batch of Acetone having only the lighter impurities such as IPA & Methanol.

I would still want to test it myself first.

Source: pioneered laboratory techniques which some other testers and chemical plants eventually adopted years later, still state-of-the-art today, including this particular material. Certified billions of dollars worth of commodities like this, single-handedly more than some single petro-chemical companies can manufacture. Less than a year ago deployed a further advanced system with two backups for 100 percent uptime in a 24hr staffed operation, for when a big oil/chemical client has their ships come in, and it was Acetone. There is still no adequate publication within ASTM, been at it since dirt was rocks, and Acetone has been around even longer. Documentation not found elsewhere.

Re: Supercritical CO2 is heavy like a liquid, with weird and useful properties

#52
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sort of agree, but I think you're too harsh. Having taught phase diagrams to freshmen, very smart freshmen, as with everything else it comes down to familiarity and practice. I tend not to look down on people for not knowing stuff they're not familiar with, I'm sure they could all get it with someone who can actually guide them through it. But I do appreciate a simple, inexpensive design of course. But they're so h…

> but I think you're too harsh. What I found when I took thermo which is where you learn this stuff. Nothing really prepares you for the basic concepts before hand. So it's a steep hill to climb. I think some students get through it via rote memorization. Which means they don't actually understand it. I had to retake the first semester because I got a C-. Which was likely for the best. I also think that thermo is som…

I was super lucky that they were taught in freshman chemistry. It made it more familiar seeming later on I'm sure.

I agree about thermo, it has an unexpected amount of symmetry. It wasn't until my third time taking a thermo course that I think I really started to get it.

I had a professor that I just straight up asked "why?" and his response was "because sometimes we want to know numbers that are hard to measure so we come up with ways to represent them using things that are easy to measure". That is by a wide margin the most practically coherent reasoning for the importance of thermo I've ever gotten, and suddenly all the seemingly arbitrarily PDE manipulation made perfect sense.

Although I think the basics like "what is entropy" are pretty generally useful regardless of if you ever touch the PDEs or free energy equations.

Re: Supercritical CO2 is heavy like a liquid, with weird and useful properties

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent use of the HPLC pump, we used to order them by the pallet. Here's the phase diagram: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carbon_dioxide_pressure-t... I'm no engineer, but I like to work with engineers that are good at not just established "engines" but imaginary ones too. I always thought any engineer should be able to understand this well-established graph just by looking at it, regardless of whether they h…

I sort of agree, but I think you're too harsh. Having taught phase diagrams to freshmen, very smart freshmen, as with everything else it comes down to familiarity and practice. I tend not to look down on people for not knowing stuff they're not familiar with, I'm sure they could all get it with someone who can actually guide them through it. But I do appreciate a simple, inexpensive design of course. But they're so h…

I don't want to be harsh, I admire and want to recognize the creative designer.

I enjoy guiding people through unfamiliar things which I have experimented with, it's good to see the diverse ways to grasp the same fundamental concept. Some students are quicker than some degreed engineers.

You seem like a person that could make an outstanding collaborator, building systems unique to the direction of the project.

I'm glad you put your website here, I'll pick up the phone and give your company a call, there's not a more promising, businesslike way.

I like instruments also, and have more than one.

Testing pays the bills, see the message for the acetone user.

When retired it might be good to build some robotic type stuff, maybe in a capitalist venture to overcome financial limitations.

Or looks like things would be fine without any equipment, helping companies negotiate the byzantine ASTM process alone instead, just been invited to join the emerging cannabis committee as an independent voting member.

That's only about testing, but extraction operators might best benefit from more supercritical ability on their side, you could surely consider this yourself now since it's very uncommon to have experience safely handling this type equipment, especially as a researcher on an experimental basis. Haven't done EOR in years and this time it could be CBD oil.

Anyway, presenting some findings on heavy petroleum oils to my traditional ASTM committee shortly, they want to get it into the book as soon as possible because it could save operators millions across the board.

Started to meet with some AI people just over a month ago too, inviting them to the lab to see firsthand (& smell) the kinds of crude oil they have been modeling about, some engineers for the first time.

Re: Supercritical CO2 is heavy like a liquid, with weird and useful properties

#55
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I think you're too harsh. What I found when I took thermo which is where you learn this stuff. Nothing really prepares you for the basic concepts before hand. So it's a steep hill to climb. I think some students get through it via rote memorization. Which means they don't actually understand it. I had to retake the first semester because I got a C-. Which was likely for the best. I also think that thermo is som…

I was super lucky that they were taught in freshman chemistry. It made it more familiar seeming later on I'm sure. I agree about thermo, it has an unexpected amount of symmetry. It wasn't until my third time taking a thermo course that I think I really started to get it. I had a professor that I just straight up asked "why?" and his response was "because sometimes we want to know numbers that are hard to measure so w…

Differential forms in thermo can be an eye opener

Re: Supercritical CO2 is heavy like a liquid, with weird and useful properties

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sort of agree, but I think you're too harsh. Having taught phase diagrams to freshmen, very smart freshmen, as with everything else it comes down to familiarity and practice. I tend not to look down on people for not knowing stuff they're not familiar with, I'm sure they could all get it with someone who can actually guide them through it. But I do appreciate a simple, inexpensive design of course. But they're so h…

I don't want to be harsh, I admire and want to recognize the creative designer. I enjoy guiding people through unfamiliar things which I have experimented with, it's good to see the diverse ways to grasp the same fundamental concept. Some students are quicker than some degreed engineers. You seem like a person that could make an outstanding collaborator, building systems unique to the direction of the project. I'm gl…

Yeah, I have the deepest respect for the people who do a lot of AI. I took Ng's online course and know that I don't know a ton but I'm more a "learn the basics, read papers after that" kind of person so I just started trying to replicate papers after that a bit.

Now my problem is mostly that I just don't have the energy to scour the research journals and books to put together datasets worth training with (for heterogeneous catalyst performance). Same as everyone I guess. The algorithms don't seem that bad, albeit obviously I want to run it past some friends that do it before claiming anything since I know I'll do it badly and just not know, so maybe in a perfect world it's just a matter of needing more data.

I honestly think it will work because I with a human brain can look at trends in catalyst manufacturing methods and composition and guess at least reasonably locally what changes will do. The parameter space is just too big between atomic composition, preparation methods, support acidity, surface area, etc etc etc. I think honestly a computer could do it because it feels like a problem of fitting the data in my head enough to model it beyond super locally.

But every time I try to improve a catalyst I succeed, which I think says more about how poorly optimized we are today than it says about my cleverness -- literally almost any random change is likely one that is a variable no one has tried yet. It's an awesomely open feeling field, and more exciting now that biomolecules are getting thrown into the mix from fermentation facilities.

Re: Supercritical CO2 is heavy like a liquid, with weird and useful properties

#57

Supercritical liquids are generally weird. H2O, for example, changes from being a polar solvent to a nonpolar solvent -- you can dissolve oil in supercritical water, and even burn it if you have a source of oxygen. It's also more corrosive -- which is relevant if you're considering using supercritical water in a nuclear reactor.

> even burn it if you have a source of oxygen How does that work? What are the combustion products? The closest reference I could find is this, https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2014/1... , which seems to be talking about something else.

Easiest case of this: You have a tank of water and oil under supercritical conditions, and you pump high pressure oxygen gas into it. You get a "flame" around the intake, but unlike a regular flame (which is the boundary between fuel and the surrounding oxidizer) this is the boundary between the incoming oxidizer and the surrounding fuel.

The combustion products are the same as you would get in the absence of the supercritical water -- typically H2O and CO2 -- but they're all contained inside the supercritical water tank, which makes this very convenient for e.g. disposing of chemical weapons.

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