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Review: Enchantments of Mammon: How Capitalism Became the Religion of Modernity

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Re: Review: Enchantments of Mammon: How Capitalism Became the Religion of Modernity

#11

Post by WalterBright »

narrator wrote: post #8
WalterBright wrote: post #2

It's not a religion, because it is not based on faith. It consistently delivers results whether its practitioners believe in it or not.

Capitalism solves things with a good enough neural net. Socialism says that it can solve problems analytically, but it just uses a smaller inferior neural net of centralized bureaucracy with access to less data, and a slower learning rate.

Conditions always change, and central planning has consistently shown a relative inability to adapt to change, meaning it just falls further behind.

This is also why corporations don't grow without limit - they become constricted by bureaucracy and unable to adapt, and smaller, nimbler outfits pick them off.

Re: Review: Enchantments of Mammon: How Capitalism Became the Religion of Modernity

#12

Post by tempguy9999 »

WalterBright wrote: post #2

It's not a religion, because it is not based on faith. It consistently delivers results whether its practitioners believe in it or not.

> It consistently delivers results

Perhaps. Whether those are the results intended are another matter qv. Enron and many more.

Edit: Then again, it depends on what you mean by capitalism. If you mean as generally practiced my criticism stands but if you mean pricing that reflects all aspects inc. externalities rather than ignoring them (as with fossil fuel use) then I'd agree. Which do you mean?

Re: Review: Enchantments of Mammon: How Capitalism Became the Religion of Modernity

#13

Post by dieterrams2 »

WalterBright wrote: post #10
eeZah7Ux wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes a lot of faith to overlook the many impending environmental disasters. Many also cling to the false dichotomy between capitalism and "soviet russia / north korea / venezuela"

> It takes a lot of faith to overlook the many impending environmental disasters. Capitalism is the only hope of fending off environmental disaster, because it is the only system capable of producing the surplus needed to deal with it. When people are starving, they lose all interest in anything but their next meal, regardless of how they get it. For example, the US was the first to clean up its waterways, and this i…

You’re crediting capitalism with solving the very problems it created.

Re: Review: Enchantments of Mammon: How Capitalism Became the Religion of Modernity

#14

Post by Gibbon1 »

rcoveson wrote: post #9
Gibbon1 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would appear that the 40 year experiment in the west has failed completely though.

This comment is deeply insulting to everybody in history who has lived in a society that has in fact completely failed. Respect your relative paradise. I guarantee you won't discover anything superior to "the west" unless you acknowledge the many things it has gotten right.

Your faith is strong brother.

Re: Review: Enchantments of Mammon: How Capitalism Became the Religion of Modernity

#15

Post by WalterBright »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #12
WalterBright wrote: post #2

It's not a religion, because it is not based on faith. It consistently delivers results whether its practitioners believe in it or not.

> It consistently delivers results Perhaps. Whether those are the results intended are another matter qv. Enron and many more. Edit: Then again, it depends on what you mean by capitalism. If you mean as generally practiced my criticism stands but if you mean pricing that reflects all aspects inc. externalities rather than ignoring them (as with fossil fuel use) then I'd agree. Which do you mean?

> Perhaps.

No doubt about it. Look around you, all the stuff in your dwelling, etc., all from capitalism.

> Enron

Enron made its hay from taking advantage of California's regulation of consumer electricity prices, and the inability of the regulators to adapt.

Re: Review: Enchantments of Mammon: How Capitalism Became the Religion of Modernity

#16

Post by WalterBright »

dieterrams2 wrote: post #13
WalterBright wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes a lot of faith to overlook the many impending environmental disasters. Capitalism is the only hope of fending off environmental disaster, because it is the only system capable of producing the surplus needed to deal with it. When people are starving, they lose all interest in anything but their next meal, regardless of how they get it. For example, the US was the first to clean up its waterways, and this i…

You’re crediting capitalism with solving the very problems it created.

All human societies produce pollution, going back to the very beginning. In fact, archaeologists love to study ancient trash heaps.

Re: Review: Enchantments of Mammon: How Capitalism Became the Religion of Modernity

#17

Post by megaman821 »

dieterrams2 wrote: post #13
WalterBright wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes a lot of faith to overlook the many impending environmental disasters. Capitalism is the only hope of fending off environmental disaster, because it is the only system capable of producing the surplus needed to deal with it. When people are starving, they lose all interest in anything but their next meal, regardless of how they get it. For example, the US was the first to clean up its waterways, and this i…

You’re crediting capitalism with solving the very problems it created.

What economic system produces no waste or pollution?

Re: Review: Enchantments of Mammon: How Capitalism Became the Religion of Modernity

#18

Post by tempguy9999 »

WalterBright wrote: post #15
tempguy9999 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It consistently delivers results Perhaps. Whether those are the results intended are another matter qv. Enron and many more. Edit: Then again, it depends on what you mean by capitalism. If you mean as generally practiced my criticism stands but if you mean pricing that reflects all aspects inc. externalities rather than ignoring them (as with fossil fuel use) then I'd agree. Which do you mean?

> Perhaps. No doubt about it. Look around you, all the stuff in your dwelling, etc., all from capitalism. > Enron Enron made its hay from taking advantage of California's regulation of consumer electricity prices, and the inability of the regulators to adapt.

> all the stuff in your dwelling, etc., all from capitalism

The value of those things depends on whether they were produced in ways that takes externalities into consideration ie. I fear we're destroying the ecosystem to create those.

You haven't made clear where you stand on that, and it's crucial to understanding each others positions. I'd be grateful if you'd address that.

re. enron, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron#2001_Accounting_scandals:

"Enron used a variety of deceptive, bewildering, and fraudulent accounting practices and tactics to cover its fraud in reporting Enron's financial information"

That doesn't fit in with what you said.

Re: Review: Enchantments of Mammon: How Capitalism Became the Religion of Modernity

#19

Post by megaman821 »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #4
WalterBright wrote: post #2

It's not a religion, because it is not based on faith. It consistently delivers results whether its practitioners believe in it or not.

It would appear that the 40 year experiment in the west has failed completely though.

Let's say it has failed you personally. You are probably not the only person that feels that way. What in a capitalist society is stopping you from forming a community that is far more socialist? All the companies in your community can be employee-owned. You are free to tax yourselves to provide social services above and beyond the baseline. Why not show the capitalists how your system is superior?

Re: Review: Enchantments of Mammon: How Capitalism Became the Religion of Modernity

#20

Post by WalterBright »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #18
WalterBright wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps. No doubt about it. Look around you, all the stuff in your dwelling, etc., all from capitalism. > Enron Enron made its hay from taking advantage of California's regulation of consumer electricity prices, and the inability of the regulators to adapt.

> all the stuff in your dwelling, etc., all from capitalism The value of those things depends on whether they were produced in ways that takes externalities into consideration ie. I fear we're destroying the ecosystem to create those. You haven't made clear where you stand on that, and it's crucial to understanding each others positions. I'd be grateful if you'd address that. re. enron, from https://en.wikipedia.org/…

> I'd be grateful if you'd address that

Sure. I propose that externalities (like pollution) be taxed, in order to "internalize the externalities".

> That doesn't fit in with what you said.

That refers to the accounting. I was referring to their manipulation of prices, which was only made possible by California's fixing of consumer electricity rates.

As for accounting fraud, that's illegal and not free market.

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