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Double Slit Experiment No Mystery

billwadge.wordpress.com

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Re: Double Slit Experiment No Mystery

#51
post #49
post #44

Physicist here. This is just self-congratulatory nonsense. Though I shouldn't be surprised, because I originally signed up for this site to comment against some other self-congratulatory nonsense. Quantum mechanics is built on extraordinarily simple rules, in fact simpler ones than classical mechanics: all you do is sum up the amplitudes for various paths, and square it to get a probability. The problem is that the o…

> committing to a classical ontology in terms of "waves" or "particles" is almost impossible Not that I disagree with this, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about de-Broglie-Bohm.

de Broglie-Bohm has the same problems as usual for such theories. I wrote an article once [0] about such things and I'll just quote from it.

> To understand the working physicist’s position, it is useful to consider pilot wave theory. This alternative to the Copenhagen interpretation is often championed by realist philosophers, who would prefer that measurable properties, such as the position of a quantum particle, should always be well-defined. In this interpretation, the wavefunction is a classical field, like the electromagnetic field, called the pilot wave. Every particle always has a definite location, but it is “guided” by interaction with its pilot wave, allowing it to perform feats impossible for ordinary classical particles, such as quantum tunneling. Hence, the subtlety of quantum mechanics is dispelled by describing a quantum particle as both a classical particle and a classical field, in a literal interpretation of wave-particle duality.

> For those who have struggled with the subtleties of quantum mechanics, this simple story sets off alarm bells. For one thing, where is the probability? If the electron really has a definite position, then why is it measured to be seemingly random, even after the electron settles into its lowest energy state? The answer is that the pilot wave is postulated to unpredictably shuffle about the location of the electron until its position reaches “quantum equilibrium” and matches with the predictions of the Copenhagen interpretation. This shell game is assumed to occur too quickly to detect. Worse, once it is over, the electron is predicted to hover in midair, perfectly still. Velocity measurements indicate otherwise, so pilot wave theory simply assumes they are all mistaken. Apparently, there is a real velocity, but it cannot be measured, and any attempt to do so yields something else. These ad hoc fixes allow pilot wave theory to avoid contradiction with the empirically verified uncertainty principle.

> The pilot wave itself also has strange properties. We expect to be able to measure classical fields, but the pilot wave cannot be directly measured. Classical fields were introduced to avoid nonlocal “action at a distance”, but when the particle is measured, the pilot wave instantly collapses. The collapse is postulated to be faster than light but coincidentally completely undetectable, making pilot wave theory almost impossible to reconcile with relativity. Furthermore, “Bell test” experiments confirm that this problem cannot be removed in any refinement of the theory.

> The reason most physicists are hesitant to accept pilot wave theory is that it appears to have the ether’s flaws. In exchange for the classical intuition of definite particle trajectories, the theory drastically increases the complexity of our world. It suggests many natural questions about the nature of the pilot wave and particle, then gives them unnatural answers which are hidden from observation. That is why, when physicists working on quantum foundations were polled at the 2011 conference Quantum Physics and the Nature of Reality, precisely zero vouched for the pilot wave. The interpretation is like an art teacher who sings the praises of creative freedom, yet berates any who draw outside the lines.

I don't personally have anything against Bohmian mechanics except for one thing: its supporters consistently ignore all of these well-known issues and present it as if it's a completely perfect quasi-classical model for the world, only kept down by conspiracy. This leads to all kinds of crazy narratives that I think are actively harmful to the field. At the very least, people who go out and talk about the many worlds interpretation face the weirdness of quantum mechanics head on, and honestly.

0: https://knzhou.github.io/#writing

Re: Double Slit Experiment No Mystery

#52
post #7

Actually the mysteries are deeper. This one can't explain "Delayed Choice Quantum Erasure" experiments, which is also a double slit experiment. But the arrangement allows you to detect the path AFTER the photon has traveled through one of the slits and hit the surface. Now after the photon has hit the surface you can decide whether to detect its path or not. A delayed choice. But based on your later choice the interf…

The quantum Erasure doesn't have anything to do with wave particle duality imo. They are purely testing the effects of entanglement and choice.

I see entanglement differently than most people.

They tend to believe it's a state of identically positioned particles acting in unison. To quote the wiki "that converts the photon (from either slit) into two identical, orthogonally polarized entangled photons with 1/2 the frequency of the original photon"

But entanglement and super position are all about balance. Too much interference and your state is lost.

Our galaxies and solar systems are macro representations of entanglement. I mean is got to be pretty obvious. We are essentially using the same technology to look at both.

So if entanglement is all about balance, no shit whatever you measure on one will be the opposite for the other.

There are two sides to a coin.

We are messing up where the axiom of choice is taking place. It always happens at the point of entanglement. Based on that choice every step from there is deterministic "in theory".

Re: Double Slit Experiment No Mystery

#53
> Admittedly there’s still a bit of mystery left. How does periodicity in space quantize momentum (I think if it as a sort of resonance phenomenon). But it’s hardly an impenetrable, soul searing mystery that makes you question reality itself.

I don't find this to be true. What's left is the key issue. The entire mystery is left. The old QM worked exactly like that explanation: you take a classical explanation and postulate that some quantity in it is quantised. This is ad-hoc and not a general approach. A major breakthrough in the new QM was an explanation why things are quantised. And yes, it's a resonance phenomenon. Resonance of what? Probability amplitude waves. Once you have that explanation you can do away with the classical+quantised part of the explanation, because it becomes superfluous.

Re: Double Slit Experiment No Mystery

#54
QM is easy to describe. There is wave-particle duality, but not at the same 'time', only in a strict alternating sequence of propagations and interactions.

Propagation is completely wave-like. It is unitary and time reversible, without loss of information. There is no particle there, and no 'there' there, as the propagation is non-local. Waves have complex amplitudes. Interference happens because that's what waves do. Propagation is described by the Schrodinger/Dirac equation.

Interaction is completely particle-like. The interaction is non-unitary and time-irreversible. The interaction may also be known as detection or measurement.

The wave only contributes the probability of the interaction happening, which is described by the Born Rule. Amplitudes are complex, so squaring them with the Born Rule can give negative probabilities, which is why the double-slit experiment gives many fringes.

The interaction is local, because it creates the 'there'. Positions and distances are created by the interaction as a specific spacetime event. Hence the aphorism spooky distance at an action, meaning that (inter)action is fundamental, and distance is a strange thing created as a byproduct.

There are conservation laws that balance some incoming and outgoing properties, scattering laws that determine how the interaction happens for various forces, and some constraints between the knowable values of commuting pairs of observable state (particle properties) that are revealed (entangled) by the interaction. These constraints are also known as Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, but are really just direct and obvious mathematical properties of wave packets, as described by Fourier Analysis.

After the interaction, there will be propagation of new waves for the outgoing particles (meaning a bundles of state). The interaction results in an entanglement (correlation of future possible interactions) between these distinct outgoing waves.

That's it.

Re: Double Slit Experiment No Mystery

#55
post #44

Physicist here. This is just self-congratulatory nonsense. Though I shouldn't be surprised, because I originally signed up for this site to comment against some other self-congratulatory nonsense. Quantum mechanics is built on extraordinarily simple rules, in fact simpler ones than classical mechanics: all you do is sum up the amplitudes for various paths, and square it to get a probability. The problem is that the o…

Here we go. Throwing around internet titles. You do realize he has a PHD in math. I will trust his math work over your "theories"

Let's see some papers you have published?

Re: Double Slit Experiment No Mystery

#56

QM is easy to describe. There is wave-particle duality, but not at the same 'time' , only in a strict alternating sequence of propagations and interactions. Propagation is completely wave-like. It is unitary and time reversible, without loss of information. There is no particle there, and no 'there' there, as the propagation is non-local. Waves have complex amplitudes. Interference happens because that's what waves d…

I agree.

Though the duality comes from the measurements. We are literally measuring kenenitc vs potential energy. The reference frames are completely different. One is when an object is at rest "particle" and the other is when the object is in motion "wave"

That's the reason for the entire uncertainty principal!

What if we took two properties that weren't intrinsically link?

Re: Double Slit Experiment No Mystery

#57

1. It’s very nice to be introduced to Landé and Duane. 2. After so much emphasis on reason and experiment and evidence, it is jarring to switch gears to a conspiracy theory about scientists concealing or ignoring theories in order to make themselves seem “superhuman.” 3. It’s very nice to be introduced to Landé and Duane.

You'd be surprised how much scientists hush and push dissenting voices which don't suite a particular theory which one cabal wants to be true. Sean Caroll has been advocating strongly in public to go back and take a look at measurement problem but nobody wants to do it. He speaks more about this on his podcast (mindscape) and also on Joe Rogans podcast ( I mean the fact that he had to bring it up in Joe Rogans podcas…

I'm not saying anything about whether it is true or not.

I'm saying there is a completely different class of reasoning between talking about how the two-slit experiment might not be mysterious, and describing the use of the scientific method to validate it, versus attributing the obscurity of a result to a systemic bias problem in science.

I completely accept that science has human bias problems... The community is made of people, after all. I personally subscribe to the idea that it is systemically sexist.

So I do not argue that there is a bias, I only state that the transition from one kind of discussion to the other was jarring in this post.

I waled away from the article not sure if it was primarily about a theory I hadn't heard of, with a footnote about why I hadn't heard of it, or if it was primarily about a systemic coverup of a theory, with some introductory material about the theory presented to understand why it would be covered up by the establishment.

One can say, "Why not both?" But truly, good writing has a focus, and an essay really doesn't have a lot of room to stray too far from a single, primary message.

It could be that one good essay is about how the grand mystery isn't that mysterious, and another good essay is about how Science with a capital S is biased towards the mysterious and inscrutable.

It wouldn't take much editing for this essay to be transformed into either of those. And perhaps this is a matter of taste, but I would prefer one of those essays to this one.

But that being said, whatever else I might think about its focus, I'm glad it introduced me to something intriguing about the two-slit experiment!

Re: Double Slit Experiment No Mystery

#58
post #44

Physicist here. This is just self-congratulatory nonsense. Though I shouldn't be surprised, because I originally signed up for this site to comment against some other self-congratulatory nonsense. Quantum mechanics is built on extraordinarily simple rules, in fact simpler ones than classical mechanics: all you do is sum up the amplitudes for various paths, and square it to get a probability. The problem is that the o…

Here we go. Throwing around internet titles. You do realize he has a PHD in math. I will trust his math work over your "theories" Let's see some papers you have published?

You can check my website, which I linked above, for several papers and a dissertation.

I'm not talking about any of "my" "theories" at all, I'm just describing a bit of what has been done in the past century by thousands of smart and dedicated people.

Re: Double Slit Experiment No Mystery

#59
post #19

It is very common in physics that the same phenomenon can be explained using different concepts. Treating particles hitting a regular structure as diffraction of de Broglie waves gives exactly the same results as the momentum transfer approach the author prefers. In fact, both can be derived from standard quantum mechanics and both are widely used, depending on which is easier in the particular case. However, scatter…

Well I don't believe that's what he intended. It seemed he was trying to argue about the double slit not being evidence of wave particle duality. I tend to agree, the notion of matter being in two places at once is nonsense. Also I agree with the author that the majority of people tend to point to the double slit as some type of proof.

> Well I don't believe that's what he intended.

Agreed. Remember he started by saying the double slit experiment has been performed on much larger molecules at this point. People who come across this will go "wait a second?!" and question what they've been told.

Re: Double Slit Experiment No Mystery

#60
post #51
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> committing to a classical ontology in terms of "waves" or "particles" is almost impossible Not that I disagree with this, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about de-Broglie-Bohm.

de Broglie-Bohm has the same problems as usual for such theories. I wrote an article once [0] about such things and I'll just quote from it. > To understand the working physicist’s position, it is useful to consider pilot wave theory. This alternative to the Copenhagen interpretation is often championed by realist philosophers, who would prefer that measurable properties, such as the position of a quantum particle, s…

Thanks. That's a great essay. You should put your name on it.
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