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Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

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Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#51
post #29

> It also lists $33,950 as the price after an $8,550 federal tax incentive. There is something absolutely astonishing about the fact that in America the way we have go about being eco-friendly is to give huge tax breaks to rich people to buy solar panels and electric vehicles. To think with all that money we could build better infrastructure and denser housing. Really boggles the mind.

Really? Isn't that how all successful technology starts off - highly priced, effectively experimental, but then becoming more and more available to the general public as the price goes down and production increases?

The trouble is that you're necessarily picking winners and losers in order to design the incentive scheme.

It makes no sense to pay somebody $7500 to buy a new car to drive to work, but not to switch to cycling or telecommuting.

In this case, it's not necessarily clear that this is a product that needs to happen. Grid scale solar is significantly cheaper due to the economies of scale.

Were there a carbon tax, there'd be the same encouragement of environmental solutions while leaving the market some flexibility in achieving that goal.

With that said - I'll take the politically feasible solution rather than nothing.

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#52
post #29

> It also lists $33,950 as the price after an $8,550 federal tax incentive. There is something absolutely astonishing about the fact that in America the way we have go about being eco-friendly is to give huge tax breaks to rich people to buy solar panels and electric vehicles. To think with all that money we could build better infrastructure and denser housing. Really boggles the mind.

Really? Isn't that how all successful technology starts off - highly priced, effectively experimental, but then becoming more and more available to the general public as the price goes down and production increases?

[deleted]

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#53

> It also lists $33,950 as the price after an $8,550 federal tax incentive. There is something absolutely astonishing about the fact that in America the way we have go about being eco-friendly is to give huge tax breaks to rich people to buy solar panels and electric vehicles. To think with all that money we could build better infrastructure and denser housing. Really boggles the mind.

This effectively multiplies the amount of money invested in climate-friendly technology and infrastructure by a factor of 5 with 80% coming from rich people, while generating jobs and more taxes. I find the classist outrage detrimental and disappointing.

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#54
post #37

> It also lists $33,950 as the price after an $8,550 federal tax incentive. There is something absolutely astonishing about the fact that in America the way we have go about being eco-friendly is to give huge tax breaks to rich people to buy solar panels and electric vehicles. To think with all that money we could build better infrastructure and denser housing. Really boggles the mind.

Is $8000 huge? What kind of infrastructure do you expect to build with that?

You’re right. $8k is not a lot. But multiply that by the amount of people who received the incentive, and it adds up

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#55
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The manufacturer states 25-30 years for shingles, but it's rarely the case they actually last that long unless you're paying for premium shingles. I'm in Canada though, so perhaps the harsher weather has something to do with that. Regardless, in Canada at least, 25-30 years for shingles is not common; 15-20 is more realistic from what I can tell in my area.

Why do they degrade so quickly? I also live in UK and replacing an entire roof is not a common thing to do, every 50 years sounds about right, my roof is 35 years old without any leaks.

Freeze & thaw cycle plays hell on roofs in North America.

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#56
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that can't be true as rich people are by definition a small minority. why not just give the subsidies directly to the companies

I would also say that Rich people pave the way for adaption. For example, look at prices of flights. Before there was no "first class" everything was first class, now there are cabin options. While that example is a service, more proliferation of service == wider adaption == increased scale of economies == eventually prices come down for everyone.

That would be true if solar roofs were some novel technology that the rich would adopt first, and then the rest. This is a remix of existing technology, much like the iphone. The rich don't have roofs, they have domes or yachts. The poor don't own roofs. This is directed at the middle class squarely and only. To the extent that richer people adopt this, it's mostly for signaling reasons and not because it affords them some luxury they didn't have (like flights did).

Your analogy is more appropriate for space tourism.

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#57
post #22

I think a major challenge that is yet to be addressed is the fact that solar panels lose their efficiency over time [1] [2]. Seems like you're looking at 80% of rated efficiency after 20 years - and I'm unsure this includes failures. In the UK a 50+ year old roof is very common - most people expect a house to outlast them without anything but minor repairs. If I were building a house I would want something where it's…

> Seems like you're looking at 80% of rated efficiency after 20 years

If you are living off grid, that might be an issue although it could be fixed by just getting some more solar panels later or oversupplying at first. However, for people still connected to the grid, they can just use a little more later on from the grid so I don't see what the big deal is.

Re: Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels

#59
The interesting parts of the call yesterday for me were talking about the challenges they have with v2, although we didn’t really get to hear much about how those issues were addressed.

First, that basically everyone was pulled off working on Energy to deal with Model 3 issues because they were do or die for the company. Now with Model 3 under control those resources were put back into Energy - solar, roof, and storage.

Second, there was not a fundamental manufacturing issue with the solar glass roof, but rather it was a product which fundamentally was not worth scaling until the economics made sense.

The economic driver Tesla is targeting is that anyone getting a new premium roof with solar would pay less for the solar glass roof than to get the new premium roof and then add panels separately. For someone with an existing premium roof with significant life remaining, the solar glass roof may still be something you choose, but it’s not literally going to be cheaper.

The major issue with v2 was what they call “edge conditions”. It is funny that this sounds like software guys talking about roofs, not probably the way that roofing guys would talk about it. But they are talking about anywhere that two planes meet on a roof where tiles need to create a waterproof barrier. Flashing, ice & water shield, etc. With their v2 product this required essentially custom fabrication in the field - what Elon called an artisanal roof, like building the airplane out on the runway. This required several days (even weeks) of work on-site to fabricate and install the product, and so they were never going to try to scale that.

Version 3 is supposed to address the fundamental issues with edge conditions. I didn't catch a lot of detail on the call of exactly what they did to address this, but the end result is that they do not expect to have to do any custom fabrication on-site, and they are targeting a process where a largish crew can compete an average roof install in 8 hours, ultimately they want the tiles to go down as fast as asphalt (which is quite fast if you’ve ever watched it).

Lastly, they talked about reducing the number of sub-assemblies in the tiles by 50%, and the expected difficulty in ramping up production. Elon tried to be very clear that predicting the exactly volume output on the steep part of the S-curve is basically impossible, but they want to be producing enough for 1,000 roofs per week, and manufacturing is already under way for V3.

They will be running install-athon competitions internally in Tesla on test roofs that they have to test different methods, and they also want to invite 3rd party contractors to compete as well. Their intent is to have both Tesla internal as well as 3rd party certified installers installing the glass roof. They will leverage their existing presence in 25 states where they do Solar today, and ultimately want the product available across 50 states.

If I was able to ask a question on the call I would have asked about winterization. I want to know that they’ve tested their solution against ice & snow, and particularly that it won’t ice dam during a New England winter.

Financially, I wonder how the margins compare to Model 3. ASP is in the same ballpark, so ramping up to 1,000 installs a week would be total revenue just barely on the same order of magnitude as Model 3 revenue, which was a serious reality check for me. Elon said on the Q3 call that they think Energy will be as big or bigger than EVs overall and that he thinks people are significantly undervaluing their generation and storage LOBs.

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