Economists are now admitting that they were wrong about globalization • Hacker News Board

Re: Economists are now admitting that they were wrong about globalization

#81

Post by methodover » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 8:02 PM UTC

harryh wrote: post #67

methodover wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sympathetic to that idea, to some extent. Foreign workers would indeed be happy to get a marginal increase in their income, even if those wages and working conditions are well below developed-country standards. But, then, aren't we just making a trade at that point? I will fire 100 local blue collar workers, and hire 100 foreign workers who will do their job for less. I hurt 100 people, help 100 people, and along…

It is generally thought of as immoral to rend one person in order to help one other. Not when it comes to buying things, which is what this situation is. Blue collar workers in the US (or other developed nations) don't have a moral demand on you to purchase their labor at the same rate forever. If someone across the street (or across an ocean) is selling the same product for less money it's perfectly fine to buy it f…

Yeah, this is another aspect of the debate I find myself challenging: Labor is different. Our human lives are different than a cell phone plan.

Re: Economists are now admitting that they were wrong about globalization

#82

Post by pnutjam » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 8:02 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #40

ep103 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an article once, that claimed when a Scandinavian country joined the EU, they expected significant job distortion as a result of free trade. So they literally moved government agencies from their current locations, to locations that they expected would be hardest hit. The end result was the shifting of thousands of government jobs from one location to another. Highly trained people in the old government center…

Such a strategy failed utterly in Canada. They moved a government department from Ottawa to Miramichi, New Brunswick for similar reasons. All the skilled bureaucrats used their reputations to get transfers to a different department so they wouldn't have to uproot their family, and the department was rebuilt around a core of incompetents. I'm sure the locals they hired weren't so incompetent, but rot starts from the t…

More and more it seems like some sort of UBI or welfare system is the only real option. Give people an income floor and don't worry if they flourish above that, at least to a certain extent.

Re: Economists are now admitting that they were wrong about globalization

#83

Post by guelo » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 8:03 PM UTC

wahern wrote: post #6

> But after the Cold War ended, the debate over trade (Krugman’s Nobel-winning specialty) became a proxy for a larger intellectual struggle over free markets versus government intervention. This is the crux of it. The notion that economics, as a field, was blindsided by the rapidity and extent of economic dislocation doesn't match the history. Such a narrative is a whitewashing of a particular clique of superstar eco…

> the truth is, on balance free trade is better for the world

Only because economists' only metric is GDP with the baked-in assumption that exponentially increasing natural resource usage is a good thing.

Re: Economists are now admitting that they were wrong about globalization

#84

Post by tengbretson » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 8:04 PM UTC

harryh wrote: post #67

methodover wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sympathetic to that idea, to some extent. Foreign workers would indeed be happy to get a marginal increase in their income, even if those wages and working conditions are well below developed-country standards. But, then, aren't we just making a trade at that point? I will fire 100 local blue collar workers, and hire 100 foreign workers who will do their job for less. I hurt 100 people, help 100 people, and along…

It is generally thought of as immoral to rend one person in order to help one other. Not when it comes to buying things, which is what this situation is. Blue collar workers in the US (or other developed nations) don't have a moral demand on you to purchase their labor at the same rate forever. If someone across the street (or across an ocean) is selling the same product for less money it's perfectly fine to buy it f…

> If someone across the street (or across an ocean) is selling the same product for less money it's perfectly fine to buy it from them instead.

The people across the ocean in this instance are working obscene hours under deplorable conditions. When you take your business to these overseas firms you are effectively telling your local workers "these are the conditions I think you ought to be working under."

Except it's even worse because you don't have the stones to say it to their face.

Re: Economists are now admitting that they were wrong about globalization

#85

Post by mc32 » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 8:04 PM UTC

Perot was right. He knew what the deal was. He warned us. Did we listen? No, we have good old Bill Clinton to “thank”.

Thanks a lot Bill for selling out blue collar workers in America and those around the globe who followed your “leadership”.

Re: Economists are now admitting that they were wrong about globalization

#86

Post by davidw » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 8:06 PM UTC

ngold wrote: post #44

rb808 wrote: post #35

To be clear this article isn't whether globalization is good or bad but about how it affects "American workers". Its pretty clear it has been on average very good for America and the world, but bad for say factory workers or coal miners. The response should have been to tax the wider benefits and subsidize the people who lost out, but that money got lost somewhere en-route... Most of the world is far better off in ne…

It's been fantastic for the 400 people that own more wealth then the entire country.

That's a political choice we've made in the US, not an inevitable consequence of globalization.

Re: Economists are now admitting that they were wrong about globalization

#87

Post by harryh » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 8:11 PM UTC

tengbretson wrote: post #84

harryh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is generally thought of as immoral to rend one person in order to help one other. Not when it comes to buying things, which is what this situation is. Blue collar workers in the US (or other developed nations) don't have a moral demand on you to purchase their labor at the same rate forever. If someone across the street (or across an ocean) is selling the same product for less money it's perfectly fine to buy it f…

> If someone across the street (or across an ocean) is selling the same product for less money it's perfectly fine to buy it from them instead. The people across the ocean in this instance are working obscene hours under deplorable conditions. When you take your business to these overseas firms you are effectively telling your local workers "these are the conditions I think you ought to be working under." Except it's…

In some cases they are, but as the people across the ocean have gotten richer (much much richer) their working conditions have improved dramatically. Success!

Re: Economists are now admitting that they were wrong about globalization

#88

Post by harryh » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

methodover wrote: post #81

harryh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is generally thought of as immoral to rend one person in order to help one other. Not when it comes to buying things, which is what this situation is. Blue collar workers in the US (or other developed nations) don't have a moral demand on you to purchase their labor at the same rate forever. If someone across the street (or across an ocean) is selling the same product for less money it's perfectly fine to buy it f…

Yeah, this is another aspect of the debate I find myself challenging: Labor is different. Our human lives are different than a cell phone plan.

What do you think makes up most of the cost of a cell phone plan?

Labor.

Re: Economists are now admitting that they were wrong about globalization

#89

Post by DubiousPusher » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 8:13 PM UTC

wahern wrote: post #75

bryanlarsen wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a strategy failed utterly in Canada. They moved a government department from Ottawa to Miramichi, New Brunswick for similar reasons. All the skilled bureaucrats used their reputations to get transfers to a different department so they wouldn't have to uproot their family, and the department was rebuilt around a core of incompetents. I'm sure the locals they hired weren't so incompetent, but rot starts from the t…

Failure has to be an option. Not attempting such things doesn't mean we avoid the risk of such wealth destruction; it just means we have nobody to a point a finger at when it happens. Politically this is easier because of how people think and the dynamics of our social discourse. See Appeal to Nature Fallacy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature ). This is especially true the more cynical and ideological w…

But when we attempt them we should discard the assumption that people and therefore labor behaves like a fluid. In scales of hundreds of years it does but in scales of decades it behaves like Legos or the ice stuck at the bottom of your glass. All kinds of motivations affect people's stickiness to a place, a lifestyle or a career. It's hard to know what will dislodges them or how far you can tip the glass before they all rush forward at the same time and smack you in the face.

Re: Economists are now admitting that they were wrong about globalization

#90

Post by BenoitEssiambre » Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 8:14 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #40

ep103 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an article once, that claimed when a Scandinavian country joined the EU, they expected significant job distortion as a result of free trade. So they literally moved government agencies from their current locations, to locations that they expected would be hardest hit. The end result was the shifting of thousands of government jobs from one location to another. Highly trained people in the old government center…

Such a strategy failed utterly in Canada. They moved a government department from Ottawa to Miramichi, New Brunswick for similar reasons. All the skilled bureaucrats used their reputations to get transfers to a different department so they wouldn't have to uproot their family, and the department was rebuilt around a core of incompetents. I'm sure the locals they hired weren't so incompetent, but rot starts from the t…

I don't think the good people of Miramichi are to blame for this. It's the people in Ottawa who wrote a blank check to Oracle/IBM for attempting to migrate a large part of the government software infrastructure to their incompatible system. Somehow, the contract was that billions would be disbursed to IBM/Oracle whether their system worked or not (it didn't).

Also I don't think Oracle should be allowed to hide behind the Phoenix name. This was Oracle PeopleSoft. Why would you pay billions for a piece of software when the maker isn't even willing to put it's name on it?