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Australia’s Darling River is running dry

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Re: Australia’s Darling River is running dry

#141

Post by nshepperd »

DrJones1098 wrote: post #58
nshepperd wrote: post #8

If only it was somehow possible to charge more for water, so that people would use less.

So you're saying subject a fundamental basic need for human life and existence to capitalism? That's an absolutely terrifying proposition.

Water is already subject to capitalism, both in the sense that you literally pay money for it (more than industry does, note), and in the sense that wasteful and profligate use of it due to lack of appreciation of its value (because its price is too low) directly damages water security, putting this "fundamental basic need" at risk.

Re: Australia’s Darling River is running dry

#142

Post by jefftk »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #137
jefftk wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it's a problem that food is priced?

You can literally grow food in your backyard. It's a renewable resource. You can't `create water` in your backyard. Freshwater is effectively a non-renewable resource. So the supply is limited but the demand is infinite, which makes capitalistic rules not apply. So if you attempted to apply capitalism, you would get horrible exploitative results.

You can definitely make fresh water: desalination. You can do it with just electricity or heat, though reverse osmosis is more efficient. It's not even that expensive: all the water you can drink, for pennies a day.

Re: Australia’s Darling River is running dry

#143

Post by coryrc »

ekianjo wrote: post #72
moomin wrote: post #67

Australia has a serious problem with water, and it would have a serious problem even without climate change. The water in the Darling, and in any river, can be extracted free of charge if your land includes the river. This produces permanent drought conditions in a country that exports oranges. Australia has limited water resources and laws that treat it as unlimited. It will be incredibly hard to square that circle.…

It could be simply solved by selling water usage rights or incentivizing saving water wherever the river runs. This was done with success in some parts of the US.

No water "rights". It's fucked up the entire US West. Everyone pays the same $/unit water is the only just system.

Re: Australia’s Darling River is running dry

#144

Post by skybrian »

coryrc wrote: post #143
ekianjo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be simply solved by selling water usage rights or incentivizing saving water wherever the river runs. This was done with success in some parts of the US.

No water "rights". It's fucked up the entire US West. Everyone pays the same $/unit water is the only just system.

That probably wouldn't work well either due to transportation costs; it's not a single market. Maybe it would work for people using the same river?

Re: Australia’s Darling River is running dry

#145

Post by core-questions »

pstuart wrote: post #117
moomin wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, some forms of farming e.g. cotton in Australia are literally unsustainable when exposed to market forces. Doesn’t mean capitalism is wrong in this case, though.

> Doesn’t mean capitalism is wrong in this case, though. Edit: Wes it does, in this case . This is not some software startup. The water, which ostensibly belongs to all, is the input to this wealth. Plus, that's a stupid use of water that should not be rewarded. Original below ---------------- of course it does. It's "captialism" and we must bow down before it and not question any of the inputs to the money being mad…

If market forces would make something which is already unsustainable untenable without subsidization, it is the subsidization that is the problem because it enables the unsustainable behaviour.

In other words: let the cotton farmers get stuck with paying for the water, and the business will simply dry up, and the water will be used for economically sound purposes.

Re: Australia’s Darling River is running dry

#146

Post by philipkglass »

throwawaybbb wrote: post #79
jandrese wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia would be a net power exporting nation if they harnessed their solar and especially wind resources. The fact that they still burn coal is ridiculous and shameful.

To where and how? Electricity is not something you can export when your main grid is 5000km from your nearest neighbour

"Australian billionaire to fund Singapore subsea cable project"

https://www.power-technology.com/news/australia-singapore-po...

The Australia-Singapore Power Link (ASPL) project has been developed by Singapore-based company Sun Cable project is being developed by Singapore based company Sun Cable at an estimated cost of $14bn (A$20bn). With a storage facility based in Tennant Creek in Australia’s Northern Territory, the project will include a 10GW solar farm and a 20-30GWh storage facility which will transport 3GW of power to Singapore.

ASPL was given major project status by the Northern Territory Government in July 2019 and will begin producing power in 2027.

It sounds just this side of science fiction to me, but it will be exciting if the project actually goes forward as planned.

Re: Australia’s Darling River is running dry

#147

Post by pstuart »

core-questions wrote: post #145
pstuart wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn’t mean capitalism is wrong in this case, though. Edit: Wes it does, in this case . This is not some software startup. The water, which ostensibly belongs to all, is the input to this wealth. Plus, that's a stupid use of water that should not be rewarded. Original below ---------------- of course it does. It's "captialism" and we must bow down before it and not question any of the inputs to the money being mad…

If market forces would make something which is already unsustainable untenable without subsidization, it is the subsidization that is the problem because it enables the unsustainable behaviour. In other words: let the cotton farmers get stuck with paying for the water, and the business will simply dry up, and the water will be used for economically sound purposes.

Sure. But since the word "subsidization" is in play, are we now talking about socialism? :-)

Re: Australia’s Darling River is running dry

#148

Post by nickthemagicman »

jefftk wrote: post #142
nickthemagicman wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can literally grow food in your backyard. It's a renewable resource. You can't `create water` in your backyard. Freshwater is effectively a non-renewable resource. So the supply is limited but the demand is infinite, which makes capitalistic rules not apply. So if you attempted to apply capitalism, you would get horrible exploitative results.

You can definitely make fresh water: desalination. You can do it with just electricity or heat, though reverse osmosis is more efficient. It's not even that expensive: all the water you can drink, for pennies a day.

Interesting that you think desalination is 'making' water. When I wash food I brought back from the grocery store did I just 'make' food?

Re: Australia’s Darling River is running dry

#149

Post by jefftk »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #148
jefftk wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can definitely make fresh water: desalination. You can do it with just electricity or heat, though reverse osmosis is more efficient. It's not even that expensive: all the water you can drink, for pennies a day.

Interesting that you think desalination is 'making' water. When I wash food I brought back from the grocery store did I just 'make' food?

It makes "fresh water" out of undrinkable water. There are enormous amounts of the latter.

Re: Australia’s Darling River is running dry

#150

Post by pedalpete »

moomin wrote: post #67

Australia has a serious problem with water, and it would have a serious problem even without climate change. The water in the Darling, and in any river, can be extracted free of charge if your land includes the river. This produces permanent drought conditions in a country that exports oranges. Australia has limited water resources and laws that treat it as unlimited. It will be incredibly hard to square that circle.…

Do you have a source for this? I have a friend who is a farmer in Australia, they trade water rights, so these two concepts seem opposed.

[updated] As per a comment below, Australia and the Darling in particular have a water market https://www.mdba.gov.au/managing-water/water-markets-and-tra...

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