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قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

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Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#531

Post by basementcat »

jiofih wrote: post #251
pgcj_poster wrote: post #135

This is at best useless, and at worst harmful. If we start using languages other than English for code, then we'll end up balkanizing the software world. People in humanities departments can talk about things like "Chinese Poetry" and "Continental Philosophy," but in STEM, we should be above that nonsense. I should be able to read code written anywhere in the world and understand what it does. This is the same reason…

While it’s a good joke, in reality it does not compute. “Learning a new language” as in programming language, sits in the days-to-months range, while “learning a new language” as in Arabic takes months-to-years, so you’re building a much, much deeper chasm for others to cross and contribute, even though the source code remains English-based. You can already see this happening with some open source libraries coming fr…

You might be surprised how much Arabic you can pick up if you spend a few weeks in a place like Cairo. It helps if you make an effort to completely immerse yourself and not spend too much time in western style shopping malls.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#533

Post by calcifer »

hypacrosaurus wrote: post #440
thbr99 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If given an opportunity, the French language police of Québec would have adopted and enforced it in Québec.

« the French language police of Québec » = the institution who defines the institutionnal use of the official language in the state, like all countries in the world do. France have almost the same laws as Law 101.

> the institution who defines the institutionnal use of the official language in the state

... and forcing everyone to put up signs in French [1]. Compelled speech, if you will.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois_de_...

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#534

Post by ufmace »

bradhe wrote: post #509
saalweachter wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This language is slightly more interesting for being Arabic than (say) German or Greek. You're got three barriers between the learner and the language: unknown keywords, unfamiliar letters, and the wrong LTR/RTL order. It all adds up to where, boy, it would be intimidating for me to learn this language, as someone who already knows how to program. Doesn't that imply it would be equally intimidating for someone who on…

Perhaps we should try asking someone who actually speaks, reads, and writes Arabic how big of a barrier this is before we jump to conclusions...

Would be good, trouble is, where would we ask such a thing? Nobody would be on HN unless they were fluent enough in English to find it interesting to browse English comments and discussions. Presumably there are some Arabic-only tech forums out there somewhere for people who want to talk about technical things but don't feel comfortable enough with English. But then I suppose there's probably a few of those, all with different cultures, and the result would depend on the culture of that board.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#536

Post by housecarpenter »

gwd wrote: post #366
azernik wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of languages like this - this is the much-studied spectrum of analytic vs. synthetic. English is one of the most strongly analytic languages (Chinese being even more extreme) - it determines word relationships and function with word order and helper words. Whereas Standard Arabic, Ancient Latin, and Finnish are very synthetic, changing words to indicate their function and relationship to other words i…

> some linguists have hypothesized that analytic languages are easier for foreign speakers to learn as adults, and that this causes languages with lots of geographic spread and inter-language contact to become more and more analytic. That's an interesting theory, and certainly fits with Mandarin (aka "Common Speech"); but how well does it fit with the prevalence of Greek in the ancient world, Latin during the Middle…

Yeah, Latin and Greek became somewhat more analytic during the time periods where a lot of foreign speakers were adopting them as their main languages. (That was during the Roman period, not the Middle Ages, for Latin; Latin in the Middle Ages was a dead language used only by learned people in non-everyday contexts, so its grammar was mostly preserved.) I don't know about Arabic.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#537

Post by michaelmrose »

basementcat wrote: post #531
jiofih wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it’s a good joke, in reality it does not compute. “Learning a new language” as in programming language, sits in the days-to-months range, while “learning a new language” as in Arabic takes months-to-years, so you’re building a much, much deeper chasm for others to cross and contribute, even though the source code remains English-based. You can already see this happening with some open source libraries coming fr…

You might be surprised how much Arabic you can pick up if you spend a few weeks in a place like Cairo. It helps if you make an effort to completely immerse yourself and not spend too much time in western style shopping malls.

Moving to a different continent is a bigger chasm yet.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#538

Post by Stratoscope »

skrebbel wrote: post #328
amenod wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH, I didn't get the joke until I read your comment. A small "/s" at the end wouldn't hurt.

To be frank, "/s" would have totally ruined it for everyone else. I'm assuming that you simply didn't read past the first paragraph? (That's fine, I bet we all do that way too often here) I mean, I have a hard time believing that you really can't tell that a post that states that everybody uses FORTRAN isn't serious. I care because HN has a way of ruining satire and sarcasm this way. These are only the delightful sty…

I have run into this a few times when I've posted a link (where it seemed amusing and relevant to a discussion) to this classic video of Australian Senator Bob Collins discussing an environmental mishap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM

Invariably, someone replies with a comment like "People should be aware that this is not actually an Australian senator, it is the comedian John Clarke impersonating one."

Every. Single. Time.

As if it wouldn't be obvious after watching the first few minutes of the video!

What ever happened to the fun of not realizing something is satire until you're partway into it?

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#539

Post by falcolas »

jacquesm wrote: post #409
falcolas wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, most non-English countries teach children English in their version of middle school. And most English speakers aren’t like the stereotypical French; English speakers are quite tolerant of both sentence structure mistakes and extreme dialects. They’re not really at that great of a disadvantage.

Yes, they are. There is a huge difference between having a language as you mother tongue versus having it as a secondary one. My English is reasonably good, I started young (at age 10) and yet, by the time I was 14 or so the programming books I had access to were way over my head. If English had been my first language I would have had a much easier time. It's not about English speakers tolerance, it is all about the…

Given that the average reading level of a US resident (a vast majority of whom speak English as their primary language) is around a 7th grade level, yes, you are still on par with most (US) native English speakers.

Even I, a native English speaker, have had issues getting through a number of textbooks. Mostly because it's not English that you have to be proficient with, but the industy-specific jargon and idioms.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#540

Post by dingoegret »

pgcj_poster wrote: post #135

This is at best useless, and at worst harmful. If we start using languages other than English for code, then we'll end up balkanizing the software world. People in humanities departments can talk about things like "Chinese Poetry" and "Continental Philosophy," but in STEM, we should be above that nonsense. I should be able to read code written anywhere in the world and understand what it does. This is the same reason…

I never put my finger on the trigger but then released it from the trigger so fast before. Nice meme at the end.
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