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قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

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Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#381

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

rtkwe wrote: post #367
pgcj_poster wrote: post #135

This is at best useless, and at worst harmful. If we start using languages other than English for code, then we'll end up balkanizing the software world. People in humanities departments can talk about things like "Chinese Poetry" and "Continental Philosophy," but in STEM, we should be above that nonsense. I should be able to read code written anywhere in the world and understand what it does. This is the same reason…

All that said I think there are benefits to confining languages principally to Latin script or making some kind of direct transliteration utility to Latin script since it's the language for ~70% of the worlds population [0]. It's very hard to learn to read and even more importantly hard to type in a different script. [0] https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-world-s-most-popular...

It isn't really that hard to learn to read a different script, unless it's logographic. A solid week of study at the outside and then it is just a matter of practice to get faster.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#382

Post by SiempreViernes »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #201
Animats wrote: post #3

Oh, it's just an art project. We haven't yet seen a serious non-English programming language. One would have expected one in Chinese or Japanese by now. There was COBOL in French, once, with French words and word order, but it never caught on, even in Francophone countries.

Wikipedia has a list of similar projects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_... It's really not easy to create a programming language that "catches" on, as readers of hackernews are probably aware. There are a lot of brilliant languages, based on English, wich didn't. I suspect those international programming languages are not failing because of the language barrier, but rather because they…

Most importantly, anyone that only speaks english will be unlikely to ever hear about a non-english language.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#383

Post by mendelk »

This reminds me of Yid++[0], a tongue-in-cheek C++ compiler with a bunch of keywords translated into Yeshivish[1]. (I apologize in advance if the humor is wasted on those unfamiliar with the Yeshivish / Talmudic world.) It's still in ASCII though :)

If nothing else, these things remind me how lucky I was to not have had to learn English while I simultaneously learned to program.

[0] https://schorrm.github.io/ypp/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshivish

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#384

Post by johnisgood »

pgcj_poster wrote: post #364
big_chungus wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an obvious difference; English is still the lingua franca. If you're dealing with anything international, you use it because everyone has a decent shot of knowing it; assuming most oss isn't confined to a single nation, english is still the best choice. Plus, for this reason, other nations are usually much better than America about teaching a foreign language.

Sure, if you want to start an international project, then English is a pretty good language to use. However, I have heard people say that all software everywhere should be written in English, including things like personal projects and internal tools for companies in non-anglophone countries. I think that's kind of ridiculous.

Something about non-English comments in source code is really off-putting. That, and if you generally do want people to understand, then you should use English. If that does not matter to you, or someone else, then do not.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#385

Post by SiempreViernes »

HelloNurse wrote: post #378
the_other wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I see it, if its creator made software with it, then it's a bona fide tool for programming. The fact it hasn't yet spread to more developers than those involved in the project doesn't negate its "fide"s or "tool"-ness. If you made a parser for a scripting language for content for your application, or a DSL for your colleagues to use, would you claim they weren't "bona fide"?

It's a somewhat better art project than Brainf*ck or Piet because linguistic barriers are more culturally significant than "just because I can" exhibitionism, but it has the same practical usefulness. Arbitrary obstacles make sense in conceptual art, not in tools.

Ah, another fan of the arrays-start-at-whatever you decide!

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#386

Post by gwbas1c »

I think this really misses the point about where "english" comes from in a programming language:

When we look at modern languages like C, C++, Java, C#, ect, the amount of English keywords are very minimal: "if", "for", "while", "do"... Most of a program is user-defined variables, classes, methods, ect. All of these can be in whatever language the programmer wants.

The bigger complication comes from major APIs: Mac, Windows, Linux, ect, have APIs written in English. Even if you were to write a program in a C-like language where "if" was replaced with a non-english keyword, and you defined your variables, methods, ect, with non-English names, you'd still need English APIs as soon as you interoperate with anything.

Furthermore: Names in APIs tend to be so cryptic, and require so much domain expertise, that I wonder how much value comes in translating them? Will training a non-English beginning programmer in a language with keywords from their natural language be helpful?

Seems like a good experiment, IMO!

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#387

Post by brlewis »

Torwald wrote: post #372
skrebbel wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be frank, "/s" would have totally ruined it for everyone else. I'm assuming that you simply didn't read past the first paragraph? (That's fine, I bet we all do that way too often here) I mean, I have a hard time believing that you really can't tell that a post that states that everybody uses FORTRAN isn't serious. I care because HN has a way of ruining satire and sarcasm this way. These are only the delightful sty…

> To be frank, "/s" would have totally ruined it for everyone else. Yes and no. Here on HN I see it everyday: good on-topic jokes get downvoted. I suspect this happens because when people are in "HN mode" there comes a sort of earnestness into their state that makes it hard to detect other tonalities. P.S. I needed the FORTRAN bit until it dawned on me…

We need a committee to form standards for sarcasm indicator use in various contexts.

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#388

Post by rtkwe »

AimHere wrote: post #309
DeusExMachina wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programming in a foreign language is a pretty significant barrier. Not really. I learned programming when I was 14, far before learning English. How many English constructs do you have in a programming language? Func, var, for, if, else, import, etc. You can memorize those in no time, especially if you do that as you learn programming. Documentation and textbooks are a different thing, of course. But I learned prog…

So if it's not such a huge barrier for a foreign programmer to program in an English-centric computer programming language, surely the same can be said about non-Arabic speakers who might want, or have to deal with this language?

As an English speaker with a US keyboard I would have a very hard time with قلب because I'd have to learn how to at least read Arabic and how to type it. In any other language, using say Spanish, using Latin script I at least only have to learn that importar in this Spanish language means include the library. In an Arabic language it'd maybe be استيراد which I'd have to memorize the whole word AND how to type it, which on my keyboard would be changing the layout and buying a sticker set. [1]

[0] Disclaimer all the Spanish/Arabic/etc words were pulled directly from google translate.

[1] Though Arabic is particularly rough because the shape of the letters change based on the letters around it so you have to learn that too! See: http://www.arabion.net/lesson2.html

Re: قلب: a non-ASCII programming language written in Arabic

#389

Post by schwartzworld »

johnisgood wrote: post #384
pgcj_poster wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if you want to start an international project, then English is a pretty good language to use. However, I have heard people say that all software everywhere should be written in English, including things like personal projects and internal tools for companies in non-anglophone countries. I think that's kind of ridiculous.

Something about non-English comments in source code is really off-putting. That, and if you generally do want people to understand, then you should use English. If that does not matter to you, or someone else, then do not.

> That, and if you generally do want people to understand, then you should use English

What if the people you want to understand aren't English speakers?

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