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Electron 7.0

electronjs.org

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Re: Electron 7.0

#231

Post by dwaite »

m_fayer wrote: post #151
dewey wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, and probably others, the main issue with Electron isn't the speed or even resource usage. It's that it ignores common UX/UI conventions you expect from a native app which still makes me prefer native macOS apps.

I think this peaked some time around 2015. Back then, I remember many developers getting up in arms about following Apple's guidelines to a T, or insisting that Android apps look like a hyperactive stack of colorful paper cutouts under a direct light. Since then, I think many of us have gotten tired of looking at overdesigned sameness that by now we all know will age quickly. Programmers no longer see the sense in ch…

the push isn't (just) about homogeny of look, it is about consistency for users. When your UI design is backwards (or even inconsistently backwards, such as when a user is in he-IL locale) or you label your Delete button OK on platforms where the user doesn't expect that, it makes using the app frustrating, inefficient, and error-prone

Re: Electron 7.0

#232

Post by dwaite »

DonHopkins wrote: post #227
saagarjha wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a bit silly every application would follow the same guidelines as applications are intended to do different things. Platform UX/UI conventions place too strict limitations on innovation. They really don’t. Have you taken a look at the thriving ecosystem of native, powerful macOS apps that follow platform conventions?

You might have a point there, if at any time in their sordid history Apple actually followed any of their own UX/UI conventions in their flagship apps. http://hallofshame.gp.co.at/qtime.htm

That example was 20 years ago, and Apple specifically discarded the skeuomorphic focus which that resulted from around six years ago (partly in concert with retina displays).

Do you have a more modern example?

Re: Electron 7.0

#233

Post by dwaite »

saagarjha wrote: post #194
pfranz wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure the parent was talking about macOS exclusive apps. The ones I recognize there are all multi-platform, which have always had the problem of keeping their own conventions between platform or adopting the platforms--most chose to keep their app consistent platform-to-platform. I also think "professional" apps are a special case (which is a totally subjective classification). Even Apple and Microsoft have…

There are a couple that are cross platform and still native, such as Microsoft Office and the Affinity suite.

Microsoft Office has gotten way better over the years. They used to design the UX around the idea of "Office Users", not "Mac Users"

Re: Electron 7.0

#234

Post by DonHopkins »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #85
scrollaway wrote: post #5

I'm bullish on Electron. I think it's just a couple of technical advancements away from being the ultimate desktop toolkit. For context, I love and have worked a ton with Qt, and I much prefer Qt UIs as a user. But Electron has brought true cross-platform development to all platforms (Including Linux!). If it weren't for Electron, I wouldn't even have a bunch of the apps I use today. Hell, I wouldn't have a good IDE,…

Electron is so heavy you could include a copy of Windows 95 with every application and use its GUI. This is how ludicrous the state of modern computing is. Java accomplished the same thing with fewer limitations and vastly more efficiency. Best case scenario of the continuing "evolution" of electron is the elimination of the OS entirely. Why do you need it? Just put drivers in Chrome and be done with it. It's already…

That sounds like Rodney Dangerfield describing Jimmy Carter in the SNL "The Pepsi Syndrome" sketch:

Dr. Casey: “It means, Mrs. Carter, your husband, President Carter, has become [camera zooms in on Dr. Casey] the amazing colossal president.”

Mrs. Carter: “Well, how big is he?”

Dr. Casey: “Well, Mrs. Carter, it’s difficult to comprehend just how big he is but to give you some idea, we’ve asked comedian Rodney Dangerfield to come along today to help explain it to you. Rodney?”

[Rodney Dangerfield enters]

Rodney: “How do you do, how are you?”

Denton: “Rodney, can you please tell us, how big is the president?”

Rodney: “Oh, he’s a big guy, I’ll tell you that, he’s a big guy. I tell you, he’s so big, I saw him sitting in the George Washington Bridge dangling his feet in the water! He’s a big guy!”

Mrs. Carter: “Oh my God! Jimmy! Oh God!”

Rodney: “Oh, he’s big, I’ll tell you that, boy. He’s so big that when two girls make love to him at the same time, they never meet each other! He’s a big guy, I’ll tell you!”

Mrs. Carter: “Oh no! Oh Jimmy! My Jimmy!”

Rodney: “I don’t want to upset you, lady, he’s big, you know what I mean? Why, he could have an affair with the Lincoln Tunnel! I mean, he’s really high! He’s big, I’ll tell you! He’s a big guy!”

Mrs. Carter: “No! No! No!”

Denton: “Rodney, thank you very much. You can go.”

Rodney: “It’s my pleasure. He’s way up there, lady! You know what I mean?”

—Saturday Night Live, Season 4: Episode 16, “The Pepsi Syndrome” skit, Apr. 7, 1979

https://snltranscripts.jt.org/78/78ppepsi.phtml

Re: Electron 7.0

#235

Post by thrower123 »

hechang1997 wrote: post #228
thrower123 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot love Electron. It's almost always an inappropriate choice for a desktop application, yet I see more and more of what should be power-user desktop applications moving towards using it, and it is horrible. My largest gripe with it, besides the others that are discussed ad nauseum already, is that it is impossible, seemingly, for Electron apps to spawn multiple windows without creating entire new instances. I h…

the most important reason that leads to electron's adoption, I believe, is the flexibility and customizability of HTML UI compared to traditional widget-based ones.

This is a weak argument, unless people have just never used desktop widget libraries and are arguing against an imagined strawman. There is not a farthings real difference between the two.

Re: Electron 7.0

#236

Post by DonHopkins »

chocolatkey wrote: post #134
alkonaut wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only each OS would ship an abstraction layer that guaranteed "at least modern browser X" that one could ship into. I want to ship an electron app but I want it to be 100kb and start in 0.1s and take almost no memory because the libs are shared. I don't want each little chat app or music player to gobble up half a gig of ram and take 3 seconds to start.

Microsoft is working on an API that will use the chromium that's part of their new version of edge. It's already available for use (of course right now you have to have the edge beta downloaded): https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/hosting/webv...

Thank you!!! I have been waiting for that shoe to drop. Since the OLE interfaces to IE are hopelessly out of date by decades.

Re: Electron 7.0

#237

Post by vunie »

ksherlock wrote: post #197
kej wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The LGPL requires end users to be able to view and modify the LGPL portion of the derivative work. Does iOS give end users that level of access to apps? (honest question, my outsider's impression of Apple is that they have stuff locked down more than that)

There was an iOS email client a few years back that used some LGPL components. They complied by providing the object files so you could, in theory, re-link (and re-sign) using your own updated LGPL library. Ahh, here we go: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4302517 https://web.archive.org/web/20140325063249/http://sprw.me/lg...

Let me preface by emphasizing that IANAL, but I believe the issue isn't with the software vendor and is instead with the distribution platform (i.e Apple).

The LGPLv3 mandates that users be allowed to modify the parts that are licensed by this license. The TOS of the Apple App Store explicitly disallows its users from modifying software they get from it, thereby running afoul of the LGPL.

So this issue, as I understand it, is that neither the software vendor nor Apple have a license to distribute Qt on a platform that places additional restrictions on what the user may do with LGPL software. I think this is the reason why Apple removed VLC and other GPL software from their stores.

Please correct me if I got this wrong.

Re: Electron 7.0

#238

Post by inferiorhuman »

cweagans wrote: post #220
inferiorhuman wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So choose an Electron supported OS Why? My whole point is that Electron is encouraging developers to not support other platforms. That's not helped by simply using something that the Electron devs have blessed. The absolute last thing I want is Electron to dictate which platforms I can and cannot use. or add OpenBSD support to Electron somehow. This too seems like a fools errand as the Electron devs have decided that…

> Why? My whole point is that Electron is encouraging developers to not support other platforms. Because you expressed a need for vscode. If you need it, figure out how to use it. If you don't need it, it's not a problem, right? > This too seems like a fools errand as the Electron devs have decided that anything beyond Windows, MacOS, and Linux will not ever have official support. "official support" are the key words…

If you care about it that much, whip up some patches and maintain them.

Maintain patches that will never be accepted upstream? Thanks, but no thanks. And then what about proprietary apps? Electron is a scourge that's helping perpetuate mediocre user experience and an oligarchy.

Beyond that the Electron build system is a rats' nest. If there were some killer app out there that used Electron I'd probably consider it more seriously. But Electron is a bit like systemd: an exceedingly poor solution but just good enough so that most end users don't complain too loudly.

JS but C++ for some things is just as bad as C++ for everything. Qt isn't an option for me any more than Electron is an option for you.

No, it really isn't. Using JS (ick) for the majority of your app insulates you from most of the big scary C++ bits. There are other options besides Qt and Electron. Using Qt (or pretty much anything else) would also do the opposite of trying to entrench an oligarchy.

Users don't actually suffer that much.

As much as that sounds like a ringing endorsement of Electron, I'd say the steady stream of complaints about apps like Slack are evidence to the contrary.

If your web app is good to begin with, bundling it in Electron doesn't make it worse. You seem to be okay with browser based apps, so I'm not understanding where that disconnect is.

What's acceptable in a browser is not in a desktop app. This is the same reason there's anxiety over Apple's push to bring over the iOS toolkit to desktop macs: context is everything. Expectations are higher for native apps and simply slapping an Electron install on a web app doesn't comes closer to "why even bother with a desktop app" than "hey, desktop apps are a much better experience".

Beyond that a browser can share code that electron apps can't. I don't need or want N installations of Chrome/Chromium (with the resulting overhead and security implications).

Re: Electron 7.0

#239

Post by draw_down »

headcanon wrote: post #2

Every time Electron is mentioned I bust out the popcorn for the inevitable hate spewed towards it: "Javascript is a terrible language and no one should use it" "Separate instances of chrome for every app is dumb and consumes too much memory" "Qt is amazing and elegant and desktop-native. Why isn't everyone just using Qt?"

I know, it’s amazing! Nice to see someone else here gets a kick out of it. Electron absolutely makes HNers lose their minds.

Re: Electron 7.0

#240

Post by langitbiru »

scrollaway wrote: post #5

I'm bullish on Electron. I think it's just a couple of technical advancements away from being the ultimate desktop toolkit. For context, I love and have worked a ton with Qt, and I much prefer Qt UIs as a user. But Electron has brought true cross-platform development to all platforms (Including Linux!). If it weren't for Electron, I wouldn't even have a bunch of the apps I use today. Hell, I wouldn't have a good IDE,…

I am quite bullish on PySide2 (Qt Python framework). I don't hate Electron. It's just I am more Python guy rather than JavaScript guy.

PySide2 is free for commercial purpose (with some caveats: LGPL).

https://doc.qt.io/qtforpython/

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