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The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

japantimes.co.jp

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Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#61

Post by ng12 »

wheels wrote: post #54
barry-cotter wrote: post #3

My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, and to continue stewing on it for ten years. I’ve lived in China for more than seven years and I definitely have an empty seat beside me on the metro more often than Chinese people and children and tourists say 老外(foreigner) regularly enough. So what? Life is g…

Wow. This is a truly horrifying attempt to normalize racism. "If you don't like it, just go home." He's been there for a decade. The author likely sees Japan as his home. The social mechanics of Japan are certainly quirky by western standards, but that doesn't mean that some things aren't universally unacceptable. You might as well say, "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women…

> "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women should be able to drive, stay out of Saudi Arabia." (recently changed)

I mean... yes? I cannot recommend living in either country as a member of one of those groups. Nor can I really understand the egocentric view that if you voluntarily choose to move to a new country that country's culture should change as to be comfortable for you.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#62

Post by theroo »

ddiq wrote: post #27
kochikame wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Baye McNeil is famous for finding racism where there usually isn't any.

There's always an explanation where the answer is racism, even if it isn't the correct explanation. Wider than the average Japanese person and crowding the seat(s) next to you? They must not sit next to him because he's black.

You’re really clinging to your “he’s too wide” rationale. Read the article. He’s subject to racism. It’s okay for him to comment on that, and the response over time should be that a society better upholds the idea that each human is equal.

But I’m sure you’re still convinced it’s something to do with the width of the seats.

Only on HN. Honestly.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#63

Post by GreaterFool »

theroo wrote: post #6
barry-cotter wrote: post #3

My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, and to continue stewing on it for ten years. I’ve lived in China for more than seven years and I definitely have an empty seat beside me on the metro more often than Chinese people and children and tourists say 老外(foreigner) regularly enough. So what? Life is g…

I think when you experience prejudice regarding your race, it’s unfair to characterize that as “stewing”. Maybe you don’t find this article or his initial piece insightful; that’s fair enough. But I also think it’s fair of him to shine a light on unfair treatment in the place he lives, without people suggesting - without irony - that he “go home”.

FWIW I live in Japan and I get uneasy around foreigners. And I'd be especially uneasy around folks from my home country!

> experience prejudice regarding your race

I think it might be more about culture than race. Race is a good proxy for "not Japanese". While Japan is not 100% ethnically uniform, if someone doesn't look Japanese they are most likely not Japanese.

When I see a foreigner I don't know if they've been in Japan long enough to share the same values, respect the culture, and the rules. Can I trust them the same way I trust the Japanese? Japanese have earned my trust over time. And spending time in Japan has changed me.

But a foreigner?! I don't know where are they from. I don't know what their country is like and I don't know what they are they like.

Japan is probably the safest place in the world (maybe Singapore can compete? But it's so tiny it's not fair competition). The rest of the world feels like a jungle. Full of wonder, yes, but also full of unknown dangers :)

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#64

Post by theroo »

ddiq wrote: post #22
theroo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s black. Did you read that part?

Of course, I commented on his picture and it would be pretty hard to notice his width and not his race. I don't see why this is pertinent, though, he's not Japanese and I was commenting on the fact that he's not Japanese, not on what race he was.

Width? Don’t make me laugh. It’s racism. Call it what it is. So we can pause, to allow improvement and to better uphold the idea that people are equal.

This kind of avoidance and apologizing of racism are what plant the seeds of xenophobic ideologies.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#65

Post by ng12 »

RaiseProfits wrote: post #46
solidasparagus wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rude to say that to someone, but as a foreigner if you can't come to terms with the face that you ARE an outsider, leaving's your only alternative (America's pretty diverse so eventually anyone can become a local, but in many places the visual difference will always set you apart). I've been the foreigner before and there's a big gap between not being treated like a local and being actively encouraged to leave.

It’s still racism even if it’s culturally acceptable.

Is that form of racism still bad if it's culturally accepted? There are places in the world where it is not only culturally but legally encoded that non-natives are second class citizens. Should those places be denied the opportunity to self-determine that policy?

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#66

Post by barry-cotter »

wheels wrote: post #54
barry-cotter wrote: post #3

My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, and to continue stewing on it for ten years. I’ve lived in China for more than seven years and I definitely have an empty seat beside me on the metro more often than Chinese people and children and tourists say 老外(foreigner) regularly enough. So what? Life is g…

Wow. This is a truly horrifying attempt to normalize racism. "If you don't like it, just go home." He's been there for a decade. The author likely sees Japan as his home. The social mechanics of Japan are certainly quirky by western standards, but that doesn't mean that some things aren't universally unacceptable. You might as well say, "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women…

You are using the word literally wrong, and I neither said nor implied he wasn’t entitled to do anything. I said being him must be unpleasant, to spend so long obsessing over tiny slights.

If your travels have left you an American cultural imperialist that’s cool. I’m personally comfortable with a great deal more diversity on the basis that foreign intervention is usually a total clusterfuck but if you think Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya or other American imperial adventures are successes we’re all entitled to our own opinions, if not our own facts.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#67

Post by theroo »

ng12 wrote: post #61
wheels wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. This is a truly horrifying attempt to normalize racism. "If you don't like it, just go home." He's been there for a decade. The author likely sees Japan as his home. The social mechanics of Japan are certainly quirky by western standards, but that doesn't mean that some things aren't universally unacceptable. You might as well say, "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women…

> "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women should be able to drive, stay out of Saudi Arabia." (recently changed) I mean... yes? I cannot recommend living in either country as a member of one of those groups. Nor can I really understand the egocentric view that if you voluntarily choose to move to a new country that country's culture should change as to be comfortable for you.

We should let people that brave it, comment on it without being told they shouldn’t be there by people who aren’t there.

Commenting on it is critical. Commentary can spark a change in ideas and attitudes for the better.

HN crowd always go to the pragmatic.

But what about big ideas? Big change? Can we support people that are pursuing that without zooming immediately into technicalities?

Probably not. But I hope.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#68

Post by paggle »

eirini1 wrote: post #59
paggle wrote: post #44

Sure, Japan is a ~monoracial country and there isn't the level of racial awareness there that you have in the US. I feel like you have to accept some of this if you choose to live in Japan as a person of color. I experienced this myself when I wanted to do the "teach English abroad for a year" thing in Japan after college. I have Top 1% English skills and have won literary prizes for my writing in college, and speak…

Japan is also definitely not a monoracial country - people are ignoring for example the Ainu people.

Added a character to clarify.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#69

Post by ng12 »

theroo wrote: post #67
ng12 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women should be able to drive, stay out of Saudi Arabia." (recently changed) I mean... yes? I cannot recommend living in either country as a member of one of those groups. Nor can I really understand the egocentric view that if you voluntarily choose to move to a new country that country's culture should change as to be comfortable for you.

We should let people that brave it, comment on it without being told they shouldn’t be there by people who aren’t there. Commenting on it is critical. Commentary can spark a change in ideas and attitudes for the better. HN crowd always go to the pragmatic. But what about big ideas? Big change? Can we support people that are pursuing that without zooming immediately into technicalities? Probably not. But I hope.

It is definitely acceptable to comment on his experience -- and I think it was a fascinating read -- but I'm mostly reacting to the idea that accepting it as a facet of Japanese society is normalizing racism.

Re: The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

#70

Post by ddiq »

barry-cotter wrote: post #66
wheels wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. This is a truly horrifying attempt to normalize racism. "If you don't like it, just go home." He's been there for a decade. The author likely sees Japan as his home. The social mechanics of Japan are certainly quirky by western standards, but that doesn't mean that some things aren't universally unacceptable. You might as well say, "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women…

You are using the word literally wrong, and I neither said nor implied he wasn’t entitled to do anything. I said being him must be unpleasant, to spend so long obsessing over tiny slights. If your travels have left you an American cultural imperialist that’s cool. I’m personally comfortable with a great deal more diversity on the basis that foreign intervention is usually a total clusterfuck but if you think Iraq, Af…

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