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Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

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Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#51

Post by jussij »

vonmoltke wrote: post #22
nostrademons wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary negative feedback loop is increased photosynthesis. As CO2 concentrations rise, there's more carbon in the air that can support plant life. There also tends to be both more sunlight (warmer air can support more water vapor before it precipitates into clouds) and more water (in absolute terms, from increased evaporation). Note that in the near term, the negative feedback of photosynthesis may be overwhelme…

Unfortunately, I think human land use is impeding that feedback mechanism, as there are large portions of land area that are not allowed to freely green up anymore.

And you can add to that list several natural forces as well.

For example, the Australia tropical rain forest, which by it's definition is wet, never has to deal with fire.

But this year that change as some parts of the Australian rain forest experienced bush fires.

If that trend continues then those ecosystem will struggle to survive as they have not evolved to deal with fire on a regular basis.

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#52

Post by jussij »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #47
ars wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrocarbons, not carbon. Basically plants when they rot emit methane AKA natural gas.

>> soil microbes transform it into carbon dioxide and methane > rot That's what the previous comment just said. Decomposition of plant matter occurs in many stages. It begins with leaching by water; the most easily lost and soluble carbon compounds are liberated in this process. Another early process is physical breakup or fragmentation of the plant material into smaller bits which have greater surface area for micro…

The OP is just pointing out that the rotting matter is organic in nature, which means it is made from hydrocarbons and not carbon.

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#53

Post by vonmoltke »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #24
dev_dull wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet the rich keep buying waterfront properties.

As far as I know in Florida they lobbied for the government to provide flood insurance because no private company would underwrite one.

Flood insurance is a national program underwritten by FEMA. We have it on our house in inland New Jersey, because we're on a river.

You may be thinking of the windstorm insurance program. The state of Florida underwrites that, and started it as insurance of last resort after insurers started bailing following Andrew.

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#54

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

jussij wrote: post #52
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> soil microbes transform it into carbon dioxide and methane > rot That's what the previous comment just said. Decomposition of plant matter occurs in many stages. It begins with leaching by water; the most easily lost and soluble carbon compounds are liberated in this process. Another early process is physical breakup or fragmentation of the plant material into smaller bits which have greater surface area for micro…

The OP is just pointing out that the rotting matter is organic in nature, which means it is made from hydrocarbons and not carbon.

I would have thought that was obvious from the context, fair point though.

Although I think carbohydrates is probably more accurate if we’re talking about decaying plant matter.

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#55

Post by BurningFrog »

vonmoltke wrote: post #22
nostrademons wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary negative feedback loop is increased photosynthesis. As CO2 concentrations rise, there's more carbon in the air that can support plant life. There also tends to be both more sunlight (warmer air can support more water vapor before it precipitates into clouds) and more water (in absolute terms, from increased evaporation). Note that in the near term, the negative feedback of photosynthesis may be overwhelme…

Unfortunately, I think human land use is impeding that feedback mechanism, as there are large portions of land area that are not allowed to freely green up anymore.

I keep hearing forests are on the rise lately, as the world urbanizes: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/we-are-making-the-gl...

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#56

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

pdonis wrote: post #49
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> the fact that co2 in the atmosphere is growing indicates we're overwhelming these >No, it doesn't, it just indicates different timescales for CO2 emissions vs. uptake. It's not clear to me what the distinction is you're trying to make here? If the time scale for emissions vs. uptake is different such that emissions are exceeding uptake capacity due to the different timescales, isn't the previous comment correct?

> It's not clear to me what the distinction is you're trying to make here? If the uptake timescale is longer, uptake will catch up to emissions over time (I realize I didn't make that sufficiently clear in my previous post), so CO2 growth does not indicate that uptake has reached "maximum", which is what the post I responded to was claiming.

If uptake capacity is decreasing and CO2 emissions are increasing, which I'm lead to believe is the case, and atmospheric and oceanic CO2 levels are increasing, which I'm also lead to believe the case...

Then I don't understand where you're coming from?

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#57

Post by mrskitch »

rad88 wrote: post #38
rgbrenner wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are a few: increased temp > increased evaporation > increased cloud coverage which reflects more sunlight increased co2 > increased tree growth increased co2 > increased algae, plankton growth to absorb co2... other marine animals will also feed on these, increasing their mass, and when they die, they'll sink to the bottom, where they'll mostly remain. increased co2 > increased diffusion into seawater.. clams, o…

Have you looked at Project Vesta? It's a proposal to create olivine beaches around the tropics to boost sequestration due to rock weathering. I think it's somewhat disputed because rock weathering in a surf happens at a different rate than normal, but their analysis is that if "only" 2 percent of tropical beaches were covered in olivine the weathering would counteract current emissions. I can't tell how serious this…

I’ve seen this thrown around as well, and would love to hear more. I’m interested in helping the project since it’s about the only one that has stood up to any scrutiny that I’ve seen

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#58

Post by nkingsy »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #7

I'm really curious about marine cloudseeding as a potential mitigator to permafrost melt. Essentially, high-efficiency saltwater aerosolization to create nuclei for cloud formation... Here is a 2019 paper on the critical role of clouds in arctic cooling https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44155-w#Sec7

Anything that doesn’t impact co2 becomes a permanent crutch.

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#59

Post by pdonis »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #56
pdonis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not clear to me what the distinction is you're trying to make here? If the uptake timescale is longer, uptake will catch up to emissions over time (I realize I didn't make that sufficiently clear in my previous post), so CO2 growth does not indicate that uptake has reached "maximum", which is what the post I responded to was claiming.

If uptake capacity is decreasing and CO2 emissions are increasing, which I'm lead to believe is the case, and atmospheric and oceanic CO2 levels are increasing, which I'm also lead to believe the case... Then I don't understand where you're coming from?

> If uptake capacity is decreasing

I never said that, and I don't think it's true. The timescale I was referring to is the timescale for uptake capacity to respond to a change in CO2 levels. For example, trees grow and reproduce more slowly than CO2 levels have been changing, so the increase in uptake from tree growth and reproduction takes some time to respond to an increase in CO2. But that doesn't mean it never responds. It does; uptake capacity does increase.

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#60

Post by ars »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #54
jussij wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP is just pointing out that the rotting matter is organic in nature, which means it is made from hydrocarbons and not carbon.

I would have thought that was obvious from the context, fair point though. Although I think carbohydrates is probably more accurate if we’re talking about decaying plant matter.

Fatty acids are not carbohydrates, but are hydrocarbons.

Lignin is also not normally considered a carbohydrate.

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