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Ask HN: Never been fired, what should I know before I fire someone?

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Ask HN: Never been fired, what should I know before I fire someone?

#1
I personally have never been fired or laid off. I'm now in a position to recommend a course of action for an employee with performance problems. In the future, I will likely be left to make such decisions entirely on my own.

On the practical side, it seems pretty cut and dry. I should communicate with the person about performance problems (and expected changes) clearly and repeatedly. If things don't improve in a reasonable amount of time, having the person around isn't helping the business. Time to end it.

However, I feel like I would be devastated to lose a job in this way, so I feel sympathy. I know change is hard and takes time. I also know that letting someone go can affect morale on the team. Is it better to just pay the cost and keep the person around?

How do you decide when it's time to let someone go?

Re: Ask HN: Never been fired, what should I know before I fire someone?

#2
"I also know that letting someone go can affect morale on the team."

First time I fired someone the first reaction I got from a team member was "what took you so long". So firing someone doesn't always have a negative impact on other team members.

Re: Ask HN: Never been fired, what should I know before I fire someone?

#3
One of my teammates was fired. Every time I had to work his files when he had a day off, I was tearing my hair out over his incompetence and sheer laziness. After they let him go, I spent another six months cleaning up messes he left behind, but was happy he was at least gone.

However, I feel like I would be devastated to lose a job in this way, so I feel sympathy.

Actions speak louder than words. Some people just don't really get the memo that they need to change until there are serious consequences.

Alternately, some people end up freed up to go do something else entirely with their lives and are happier for it.

People can be a hodge podge of various things. There is no one size fits all answer here.

Re: Ask HN: Never been fired, what should I know before I fire someone?

#4
post #2

"I also know that letting someone go can affect morale on the team." First time I fired someone the first reaction I got from a team member was "what took you so long". So firing someone doesn't always have a negative impact on other team members.

Good point! I've definitely had that feeling as an individual contributor.

Re: Ask HN: Never been fired, what should I know before I fire someone?

#5

One of my teammates was fired. Every time I had to work his files when he had a day off, I was tearing my hair out over his incompetence and sheer laziness. After they let him go, I spent another six months cleaning up messes he left behind, but was happy he was at least gone. However, I feel like I would be devastated to lose a job in this way, so I feel sympathy. Actions speak louder than words. Some people just do…

Maybe the stress of the workload isn't good for the employee either.

Re: Ask HN: Never been fired, what should I know before I fire someone?

#6
So after several rounds on both sides of the table... (being fired and getting laid off / "selectively eliminated"):

- Communicate the bare minimum and hand the person off to an un-involved third party (HR or admin type) to handle the rest of the process. This is not a place for a running debate about the merits of the firing.

- For the sake of the employee, never communicate this on any kind of moralizing basis (eg. you lost this job due to your character failings). They will heal much faster if they can process this as a "lack of fit with the organization". The former can spark some serious self-doubt...

- Either check up on them in a few days (purely personal call) or have a trusted third party check in on them.

Re: Ask HN: Never been fired, what should I know before I fire someone?

#7

One of my teammates was fired. Every time I had to work his files when he had a day off, I was tearing my hair out over his incompetence and sheer laziness. After they let him go, I spent another six months cleaning up messes he left behind, but was happy he was at least gone. However, I feel like I would be devastated to lose a job in this way, so I feel sympathy. Actions speak louder than words. Some people just do…

Maybe the stress of the workload isn't good for the employee either.

They may want to quit, but feel they can't because their spouse, parent or someone else wouldn't approve. They may want to do something else, but not have the energy and mental focus after working all day to successfully start something else.

I spent years trying to figure out how to make money in an entrepreneurial fashion. As long as it was a side gig while I was a homemaker or corporate employee, I couldn't figure it out. It was a different mental model from what was paying my bills and I couldn't figure out what on Earth I was doing wrong.

I figured it out once I quit and needed the money to literally eat. I still don't make tons, but it's no longer just completely mystifying and unsolvable.

Jeph Jacques, author of Questionable Content, was fired and had a part-time web comic. He began selling tshirts via his web comic to help make ends meet while job hunting. A year later, he was being supported full-time by his comic and had stopped job hunting.

Years ago, one article claimed that he was the highest paid web comic artist in the world.

It's good to be sensitive to the fact that being fired can be devastating. But it isn't always.

You need to find objective performance metrics for when it makes sense to let them go. You can't give them endless second chances.

That doesn't actually work for either party. It convinces bad actors that their current performance and behavior is acceptable.

That actively makes their future worse by denying them information concerning what it takes to meet the standard. Not firing them because you feel sorry for them implicitly says "Your performance is sufficient."

If the truth is that they are only keeping the job because you feel sorry for them, you aren't doing them any favors. You are lying to them about what adequate performance involves.

Coddling people actively cripples their professional and personal development. If they are "a charity case" that you are helping because you feel sorry for them, it's better to literally give them charity rather than give them the message that their shitty performance constitutes adequate job performance.

That just creates monsters with an excess sense of entitlement who believe they are better than they really are. It doesn't foster excellence.

It's hard enough to see yourself clearly without being de facto lied to in that manner.

It's also a huge disservice to those people who are actually earning their way. It will not be lost on them that they get less for more virtue. This is a recipe for mutiny.

Re: Ask HN: Never been fired, what should I know before I fire someone?

#8

So after several rounds on both sides of the table... (being fired and getting laid off / "selectively eliminated"): - Communicate the bare minimum and hand the person off to an un-involved third party (HR or admin type) to handle the rest of the process. This is not a place for a running debate about the merits of the firing. - For the sake of the employee, never communicate this on any kind of moralizing basis (eg.…

I'm reminded of a clip from the movie Moneyball: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTjhHrcyiQI

I really like your suggestion that someone check in with the person in a couple days. That helps address the charitable desire without compromising the need for performance at work.

Re: Ask HN: Never been fired, what should I know before I fire someone?

#10
- Keep it objective. Use NOTHING that cannot be backed with facts. This is both for the individual AND your team.

- Let HR do their job. Frankly, they should handle 80% of this at a minimum

- KISS - don't add any detail, nuance, courtesy-ANYTHING. Just get it done

How to decide? Keep that simple too:

- are they doing the job? If they're falling short, they are owed a number of chances with honest, objective feedback and equal opportunities to improve. The number of chances depends on you and your HR policies

- are they present? People who don't show are more likely to get canned by me

- Do they trigger the ahole clause? I do NOT tolerate aholes, they disrupt the team, any business partners and anything else. I don't care how good they are, these I'm most aggressive about getting rid of, although in 20+ years, only 2 triggered that one. Both were superb technically, interestingly and sadly

In the end, if I fire someone, they've earned it. I will work VERY hard and patiently with someone who is legitimately trying. Even the most average coder can meet certain standards in my experience - maybe never great, but good. Only the first firing was tough, and he DEFINITELY earned it. Don't overthink this.

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