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A New Aristocracy: Yale Law School Commencement Address (2015) [pdf]

law.yale.edu

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Re: A New Aristocracy: Yale Law School Commencement Address (2015) [pdf]

#61

Post by aexq36 »

natalyarostova wrote: post #14
astrofinch wrote: post #9

Graduating from Yale Law sounds like it's for suckers. Let the elites have their crazy working hours and stressful hoop jumping--I'm not envious.

Their cohort effectively sets the vision for American legislation and justice. You may not be interested in them, but they're interested in you.

Do they really set the vision, though? Did they start the #MeToo movement and bring down Harvey Weinstein and other powerful men? Are they leading the push for transgender acceptance? Are they the reason why reparations and universal healthcare are now mainstream policy proposals in the Democrat party?

It certainly makes sense for the wealthy, elite lawyers of a society to set the course of policy. But I'm not sure what the empirical evidence from 2019 America says. I think a lot of these Yale graduates end up becoming cogs in the existing system without actually changing it, and I think other forces might be equally as or more impactful in terms of shaping political currents.

Re: A New Aristocracy: Yale Law School Commencement Address (2015) [pdf]

#62

Post by thrower123 »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #3

Are my biases deceiving me, or has the Overton window on criticizing “meritocracy” shifted? A few years ago (including in 2015 when I missed this speech) I believe it would have been unthinkable in my social circles. I’ve become convinced that meritocracy as the Yale Law elites would know it has utterly failed 99% of Americans.

Meritocracy can't help but be hated by most people, because they will be the losers. It also forces you to confront the fact that you might not actually be part of the best fraction, and that can be horribly scarring to the psyche of those who feel entitled to unearned rewards.

Re: A New Aristocracy: Yale Law School Commencement Address (2015) [pdf]

#63

Post by barry-cotter »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #43
arethuza wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attending the "right" school is a huge factor here in the UK - at least in some areas (law and politics being the most obvious examples).

Its the same in France - though those that go to ENA are an order of magnitude more competent than some one who does a PPE at Oxbridge.

ÉNA is a training college for civil servants. It’s more comparable to the Harvard Kennedy School than PPE. If HKS only admitted people who had undergraduate Firsts and two years of top decile work experience to the MPA they’d look pretty great, like ÉNA does.

Re: A New Aristocracy: Yale Law School Commencement Address (2015) [pdf]

#64

Post by CrazyStat »

germinalphrase wrote: post #59
wolfgke wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, wealth from family of origin allows risk taking, funding for law or medical degrees, which for lower income students represent a huge risk so they go to safer less lucrative fields. Why not make an agreement with acquaintances that they fund (a part of) the tuition fees of your degree course. On the other hand you have to give them back a percentage of your gross income for the next, say, 10 years after finis…

What is the likelihood that someone who requires this funding also has acquaintances with the ability to supply it?

Thank you for pointing this out. "Just get a loan from your family/friends/acquaintances" is the modern rendition of "let them eat cake."

I come from what I consider to be a comfortable middle-class background in the US (probably not what most people would consider upper-middle class), and there's no way I would have been able to raise tens of thousands of dollars a year from acquaintances to fund an elite education.

Re: A New Aristocracy: Yale Law School Commencement Address (2015) [pdf]

#65

Post by Nasrudith »

wolfgke wrote: post #57
nytesky wrote: post #6

My school and work experience span working class coal power plant techs (a friend used to climb through exhaust channels) to Ivy League educated lawyers and founders. Most people’s career trajectory will be set by the time they are in high school, so the importance of secondary school education and resources of your parents is paramount. Also, wealth from family of origin allows risk taking, funding for law or medica…

> Also, wealth from family of origin allows risk taking, funding for law or medical degrees, which for lower income students represent a huge risk so they go to safer less lucrative fields. Why not make an agreement with acquaintances that they fund (a part of) the tuition fees of your degree course. On the other hand you have to give them back a percentage of your gross income for the next, say, 10 years after finis…

That has been known as a bad arrangement since Ancient Greece given the Paradox of the Court and related satirical plays.

Lawyer jokes are ancient it seems.

Re: A New Aristocracy: Yale Law School Commencement Address (2015) [pdf]

#66

Post by kapuasuite »

torben-friis wrote: post #35
cm2187 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree but I am not convinced wealth plays a big role. In France, higher education is pretty much free, and you see probably an even larger lack of social diversity than the US in the most ellitist programs (medecine, engineering, business). In the US there are always ways to finance education if you are a good student. I think family culture, peer pressure and the school pushing you to go the hard path is by far th…

As a European from a poor-ish lower middle class background, I can tell you that even free university doesn't cut it economically. The thing is, every year you stay at school is a year that you're a financial drain to your family and a year that you're not being an active money earner. For many, it's simply not affordable to be in their formative years until they are 22 (likely even longer if studies take more than 4…

Part of the problem in countries like France is that labor laws are very rigid, especially relative to the United States, and older workers have what amounts to a stranglehold on employers. Those employers are in turn unable to afford new workers, or unwilling to take a chance on all but the most exceptional young candidates.

Re: A New Aristocracy: Yale Law School Commencement Address (2015) [pdf]

#67

Post by Nasrudith »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #3

Are my biases deceiving me, or has the Overton window on criticizing “meritocracy” shifted? A few years ago (including in 2015 when I missed this speech) I believe it would have been unthinkable in my social circles. I’ve become convinced that meritocracy as the Yale Law elites would know it has utterly failed 99% of Americans.

I noticed a stream of it back in the 00s and probable 90s with the tech boom.

It seemed timed at least partially a result of the old order being upset at their heritage not being the gatekeeper it once was.

The Ivy Leagues have a long history of pssudomeritocracy in the form of moving goalposts to favor the legacies whenever an upstart group gains "too much" of a share. It is reminiscent of the Jewish quotas of old and they were indeed targetted

Re: A New Aristocracy: Yale Law School Commencement Address (2015) [pdf]

#68

Post by Nasrudith »

EliRivers wrote: post #31
akhilcacharya wrote: post #3

Are my biases deceiving me, or has the Overton window on criticizing “meritocracy” shifted? A few years ago (including in 2015 when I missed this speech) I believe it would have been unthinkable in my social circles. I’ve become convinced that meritocracy as the Yale Law elites would know it has utterly failed 99% of Americans.

Apropos of the theme, when "meritocracy" was coined it was a warning; something damaging to society that was to be avoided. At some point, the term was hijacked and pushed as a force for good (I suspect, but cannot prove, mostly by those who were benefitting from it) and now we seem to be coming back around the circle. Meritocracies are insidious. We can see it in some societies; "this is a meritocracy" therefore ric…

The original context always struck me as regressive and it is no wonder it fell flat.

While meant to criticize the tri-tracked educational system as a potential given that the dystopia was a replacement for the class system even if bad it fails to make a case for it being worse than literal nobility and connections to posh schools and old money.

It falls utterly flat like calling Oliver Cromwell the first military dictator in England while ignoring the kings.

Self perpetuating in negative ways is certainly a problem (there is a vast difference between being ahead because your family taught you and being aheas because competing with you is illegal) but it needs to be taken in the context of the now. What is the alternative is the real question of importance.

Re: A New Aristocracy: Yale Law School Commencement Address (2015) [pdf]

#69

Post by toasterlovin »

leto_ii wrote: post #48
toasterlovin wrote: post #10

FWIW, the issue with life experience anecdotes is that they don't control for genetic confounding. Most rich kids have both the environment their parent created for them, as well as the genes their parents gave them. So it's impossible to tell which is more important in determining the life outcomes we see. There is a whole discipline called behavioral genetics that uses twin and adoption studies and, increasingly, g…

I think this line of thinking can take you dangerously close to the realm of eugenics and social darwinism. I recommend Taleb's take on IQ as some food for thought: https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-...

A) facts don’t somehow become invalidated because a subgroup of people wants to use the facts to push an agenda.

B) Taleb is the exact embodiment of the “intelligent, yet idiot” description that he so loves to level against others. He is ridiculed by pretty much every intelligence researcher and behavioral geneticist who is aware of his take on IQ. Recently I witnessed him arguing on Twitter that the Justinian plague was not the Black Death. They’re both caused by the same bacteria, yersinia pestis. Find a better intellectual hero.

Re: A New Aristocracy: Yale Law School Commencement Address (2015) [pdf]

#70

Post by leto_ii »

toasterlovin wrote: post #69
leto_ii wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this line of thinking can take you dangerously close to the realm of eugenics and social darwinism. I recommend Taleb's take on IQ as some food for thought: https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-...

A) facts don’t somehow become invalidated because a subgroup of people wants to use the facts to push an agenda. B) Taleb is the exact embodiment of the “intelligent, yet idiot” description that he so loves to level against others. He is ridiculed by pretty much every intelligence researcher and behavioral geneticist who is aware of his take on IQ. Recently I witnessed him arguing on Twitter that the Justinian plague…

...ok, Wikipedia it is:

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Criticis...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve#Criticisms

3. You can also find various comments on ideas of intellectual superiority in Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel.

My bottom line is that I see no reason to believe humans can diverge in terms of intelligence over the span of a few generations. Social darwinism is a ridiculous pseudo-scientific idea that gets traction only with people that think they fall on the right side of the IQ divide.

Btw, could you give some examples of researchers that treat IQ seriously and consider it has a strong genetic component?

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