We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes • Hacker News Board

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#351

Post by ivanhoe » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 1:15 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #337

ivanhoe wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1438 there was no supermarkets with huge parking lots that will lure away all your customers. It's not just that people will have to walk to you (so competition located closer will win), they will also have to carry the stuff they buy back to the car, so they'll probably not be willing to buy a lot, or anything heavier. If you're selling souvenirs or t-shirts it's not a big deal, but for people selling say wines o…

People in European city centers shop differently. They more likely don’t even have cars, the stores are smaller, they shop daily or bi-daily rather than weekly like suburbanites do. They aren’t carrying a few bottles of wine and olive oil, they have one bag, and everything is pretty fresh. You can have the same lifestyle almost in the states, just live in a downtown area. Watch out for all the cars though, and wading…

Well, it's still not like in States, but mega-markets are taking over in Europe too, at least in my corner. Cities are pedestrian friendly, but pedestrian-only zones are rare. If you can't get to the restaurant/shop by car and it's not really close to you, it's quite likely that you'll go somewhere else. People get the wrong idea because in summer when they visit it looks different, partially because of the nicer weather, and partially because of all the traffic jams caused by tourists, so bikes become the main transportation to locals. Out of season 90% of the small shops is closed, and there'a lot more rain, so we just use cars to go to weekly shopping like everyone else.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#352

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 1:17 PM UTC

greggman2 wrote: post #61

deanclatworthy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You provide adequate public transport. I’m totally with you though that in many cases this isn’t feasible. I hope in the future we share our cars more often, but I can’t see this happening until they’re mostly autonomous.

IMO autonomous cars are going to massively increase car usage so car issues are going to get worse not better. Maybe we won't need parking lots but if autonomous cars happen people will use them for anything and everything. No more need for couriers just pop the package/document in a car. Want to run a business out of your house? No need to delivery people just pop your product in a car. Cook for sick relative, pop t…

We could redesign the cars to be smaller and to drive more densely if they were fully autonomous and electric. Their footprint would then more closely resemble bikes.

Or maybe someone will invent self driving bicycles/scooters for delivery tasks.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#353

Post by rapnie » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 1:17 PM UTC

willis936 wrote: post #339

jamil7 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downhill mountain biking or something similar maybe, casually cycling along a trail isn't really anymore likely to course traumatic brain injuries than jogging. Cars are the only reason cycling in a city is dangerous. Once you introduce helmets as a requirement you put cycling firmly into the category of some kind of risky sport, making it difficult for it to become a casual, normal thing that people do in everyday c…

I disagree. Kinetic energy increases with the square of speed. Jogging at 6 mph is simply an order of magnitude less dangerous than biking at 20 mph. This isn’t a simple footnote. You make a mistake while jogging and you scrape a knee. You make a mistake while biking and you may have your mental faculties permanently reduced and lifelong personality issues that drive loved ones away. Barrier to entry isn’t worth argu…

> Barrier to entry isn’t worth arguing about. It’s simply the safety precautions that need to be taken.

It's both. Safety doesn't necessarily require helmets, as Netherlands and Danmark demonstrate. I imagine barrier to entry by requiring helmets would be a huge blow to bicycle culture here.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#354

Post by willis936 » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 1:17 PM UTC

jamil7 wrote: post #344

willis936 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Kinetic energy increases with the square of speed. Jogging at 6 mph is simply an order of magnitude less dangerous than biking at 20 mph. This isn’t a simple footnote. You make a mistake while jogging and you scrape a knee. You make a mistake while biking and you may have your mental faculties permanently reduced and lifelong personality issues that drive loved ones away. Barrier to entry isn’t worth argu…

We're talking about a barrier to entry to casual cycling here, people commuting in work clothes are not going to be able to reach speeds of 20mph in a busy city, if they do it's up to them to decide whether or a not they should wear a helmet.

Then there should be an enforced speed limit for cyclers not wearing helmets. There is a delicate balance between personal freedom and the greater good. Seatbelts do not protect anyone other than the person wearing it but societies have deemed making them mandatory is a good idea. Helmets have moved into the same category and I think they should stay there. The benefits of lower barrier to entry aren’t worth the increased, unnecessary risks.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#355

Post by chapium » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 1:18 PM UTC

brnt wrote: post #347

willis936 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that helmet not be the norm when riding bikes? Biking is more dangerous than walking, even if you did it on an isolated trail. Is looking cooler worth the increased risk of a traumatic brain injury? I’m okay with society thinking it isn’t.

The point is to make cycling the norm. Adding items you need to wear or have (you could mandate a cycling license for instance) increases the barrier to entry and thus use. Moreover, helmets protect only for certain accidents, accidents which are some of the most uncommon. The danger comes mostly from bad infra design and other heavier traffic (cars). Those can be addressed separately, and it turns out pretty well. L…

Calling while cycling or driving are not equivalents. A vehicle is much more massive than a bike and to use a phone while accelerating is far more negligent. The chances of a cyclist accident harming someone other than themselves while on a phone are far lower than distracted driving accident.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#356

Post by cyborgx7 » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 1:18 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #346

cyborgx7 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. There is no need for a "balancing act" between cars and public transport. More public transport and less cars is always an improvement.

Eventually that isn't practical though. You cannot take a pallet of anything on any sort of transit and never will, it will always be delivered on non-public systems. Your new couch has the same problem. Train tracks to your front door are easy to imagine, but the flexibility of roads (with cars and trucks on it) is a lot more cost effective.

This is a silly thing to jump towards in the discussion, since it's not like we are anywhere close to the situation in which we have next to no private transport. In fact, we are almost at the other extreme.

But if I was to indulge you, I would say that public transport doesn't mean rails. In the case of buses it also uses roads. And of course, if we were to abolish all motorized private person transport (again, no where even close to that) of course there would need to be a system to allow for the transport of items that are too big to be transported by individuals in public transport. I assumed that goes without saying.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#357

Post by british_india » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #345

I lived in Palo Alto, CA, (heart of Silicon Valley) and commuted by bike to work. (I even took my bike on the train for a few weeks.) Once I met my wife, we were able to bike to each other's homes and also bike to work. It was great! Then we moved in together, and because she had a dog, Palo Alto became prohibitively expensive, and we had to move a few miles away. I only used my bike three times after that. Even wors…

Sit-down Scooter. That's the sweet spot.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#358

Post by willis936 » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 1:22 PM UTC

helen___keller wrote: post #326

willis936 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that helmet not be the norm when riding bikes? Biking is more dangerous than walking, even if you did it on an isolated trail. Is looking cooler worth the increased risk of a traumatic brain injury? I’m okay with society thinking it isn’t.

> looking cooler I don't think it's about looking cooler, it's about barrier to entry. It's like adding a 15 character requirement to passwords on your application and rotating them weekly. Most people will give up on your application before they even give it a try. OPs point is that cities should make it a goal for biking to be safe regardless of if you have a helmet. I daresay biking without a helmet in Copenhagen…

Biking isn’t safe enough to not wear a helmet just because there have been changes to make biking less likely to have an accident. If putting on a helmet is too much work then physically moving yourself to your destination is wayyy too much work. That is to say, it isn’t too much work and it isn’t a barrier to entry. At the very least citizens should appreciate the danger of biking without a helmet even if they choose to do it. Willing the problem away because biking is good on paper isn’t good enough.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#359

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 1:22 PM UTC

ivanhoe wrote: post #351

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in European city centers shop differently. They more likely don’t even have cars, the stores are smaller, they shop daily or bi-daily rather than weekly like suburbanites do. They aren’t carrying a few bottles of wine and olive oil, they have one bag, and everything is pretty fresh. You can have the same lifestyle almost in the states, just live in a downtown area. Watch out for all the cars though, and wading…

Well, it's still not like in States, but mega-markets are taking over in Europe too, at least in my corner. Cities are pedestrian friendly, but pedestrian-only zones are rare. If you can't get to the restaurant/shop by car and it's not really close to you, it's quite likely that you'll go somewhere else. People get the wrong idea because in summer when they visit it looks different, partially because of the nicer wea…

Mega markets are limited to the suburbs from my experience living in Lausanne. Yes, people drive to get there, but if you live in a city core it’s not your concern.

Lausanne has nice cobble Stone pedestrian only zones, and it is considered more car friendly by European standards (there are lots of car commuters, and lots of people living in suburbs).

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#360

Post by khafra » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 1:23 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #346

cyborgx7 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. There is no need for a "balancing act" between cars and public transport. More public transport and less cars is always an improvement.

Eventually that isn't practical though. You cannot take a pallet of anything on any sort of transit and never will, it will always be delivered on non-public systems. Your new couch has the same problem. Train tracks to your front door are easy to imagine, but the flexibility of roads (with cars and trucks on it) is a lot more cost effective.

Drone delivery for all last-mile problems. In fact, I want to buckle on a harness, and have an Amazon quadcopter carry me from the train station to the front door of my house.