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J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

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Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#81
post #35
post #16

Maybe he was a dissident, but his music is still boring to me. Or maybe his predecessors were just so boring that he was the first step away? I usually don't understand from his music why he is celebrated. Is it that he is just historically important? Like the discovery of logarithmic tuning of sqrt_12(2)? It could also be that I am just moved more by the romantic era. Mozart generally gets relegated lower in my list…

Agree with you. Mendelssohn and Dvorak are my favorites, though Bach’s cello suites are pretty good.

Yay, someone who is open to the idea! So yes, I think Dvorak is a good counterargument to Bach. I personally feel that for anyone to appreciate Bach, in 2019, you need to overlay some form of intellectualism before you can appreciate Bach. And that is something I don't like; music should grab your from the first second, if possible.

I would concede that I would appreciate Bach better if there was less public emphasis on his music. Someone like Grieg is to me fresh because it is unfamiliar. In that sense I would have had a much more open approach to Bach if the first time I heard his music had been through exploration, rather than publicity.

Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#82
post #79
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvoting opinions just because you disagree is specifically discouraged in the HN guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16574021 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314

My issue is simply that a downvote doesn't tell me anything. Doesn't matter what I think about Bach, but did someone really downvote without saying "I think Bach in interesting because x, y and z"? The analogue would be if I go and downvote some of the other comments to the OP just because they promote Bach. Anyway, it's passed.

Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#83
This author makes a similar mistake to the ones he accuses prior authors and historians of making. He's pretending as though Bach were operating alone in acting against certain norms in his music. It's obviously preposterous to suggest that anyone is acting alone or making a social statement in drinking to much or fucking hot chicks in the organ loft.

The most common misconception in music history is that it's fairly easy to attribute certain innovations to specific composers. Like, it's often dumbed down and presented as though Bach were the father of tonal music and that he was some kind of music radical in both inventing that system and taking it to its logical extreme.

This is the same kind of over-simplicity that brief histories of science and technology make.

The reality is quite a lot more murky. The tonal system was vestigially present early in the Franco-Flemish school of composition. You can see it forming in the work of Ockeghem and by the time you get to the masses of Orlando de Lassus you get profoundly different work than contemporaries who were firmly rooted in modal traditions like Zarlino and--more notably--Palestrina.

Bach's music is responding to a centuries-old tension between modal, tonal, and chromatic musical elements. Another gross simplification is the idea that modal music slowly evolved into tonal music. That all the modes except for Ionian and Aeolean simply fell out of use. Which is of course absurd since Ionian wasn't a real mode. It was just later included for the sake of theoretical completeness, not a thing composers actually used.

That aside, my point isn't that Bach is acting as a subversive rebel or charting new territory in the way that this author suggests, nor is he a god-like individual of lone genius in the way that traditional historians suggest. He is a part of a movement and incorporates elements from different musical traditions and expands on some of those and formalizes some of them.

The fugue mentioned in the article is more of a musical proof of a mathematical concept than it is an attempt to disrupt norms of melodic writing. The entire point of the Well-Tempered Klavier is to demonstrate that you can perform in all keys without stopping to retune your instrument. The b minor fugue (also weird thing here from this author: it's traditional in music theory and history texts to capitalize major keys and lower case minor keys. In a rigorous paper, this should be written as b minor fugue, not B minor fugue) is a demonstration that even within a single piece of music, you can work your way around the entire chromatic scale without retuning.

On top of that, the author isn't even correct about that particular fugue anyway. Again, Bach is operating in a context and responding to it. One of the main musical consequences of the protestant reformation and the resulting schism from the Catholic Church was that instruments were allowed in religious ceremonies. The "serious" composers of the Catholic church were focused almost entirely on vocal music, and instrumental music wasn't considered very seriously by scholars. But the protestants fostered a movement that was very focused on instrumental music that allowed the kinds of motivic writing that ignores melodic content to a certain extent and enables more intricate counterpoints. There is some aspect of what the author is saying, but it's hardly subversive. It's a continental and cultural and philosophical movement that started long before Bach was born. He's a part of that.

I do appreciate that we should stop pretending that people were pious and holy just because they wanted to be perceived that way and that Bach was way more human than perhaps we're often led to believe. But this author is really, really reaching in this excerpt, and in trying to set the record straight is glossing over all the relevant context that other historians skip over too.

Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#84
post #77
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah ok I got that a bit wrong. Though he would have been 64 at the time of sale and died a year after so I guess they were around in the later part of his life.

You didn’t get it completely wrong in the sense that piano was in its infancy at the time and nowhere near the capabilities and sonic features of modern pianos. So it is possible that when Bach wrote his “fur klavier” (“for keyboard instruments”) compositions, he didn’t have piano in mind. Probably his favourite keyboard instrument was the lute-harpsichord since he owned one https://baroquemusic.org/barluthp.html

That's awesome. I'd never heard of the lute-harpsichord before, but the sound is great! The bass is so deep and mellow, but otherwise sounds pretty similar to a harpsichord. I love it, thank you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNYJirAcyJo

Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#85
post #34
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has little to do with the music and everything to do with the interpretations and the instruments. I realized that when hearing non-traditional versions used by Andrey Trakovsky in his films, e.g.: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p3SUEWCddsQ

Interpretation is an important point. My music teacher discouraged interpretation of Mozart. I in turn refrained from discussing much about composition with the teacher and instead did that independently. She wasn't a bad teacher, but I don't think she liked me.

I am mostly a autodidact when it comes to music, but one who made it to some level (I play in a improvisational band). In my experience there are only few classical musicians who are able to work freely when interpreting a existing piece (and they are usually very good at what they are doing). But when you ask a regular classical trained musician to improvise, they will look at you in fear or start playing a piece they know by hard.

I think this is sad, because musician should be about fooling around and experimenting with sounds, melodies and phrases that come out of your instrument. Of course you can refine it all for a concert, but beeing a perfect classical musician should be more like Picasso and less like someone who tries to paint like a photograph (and keep in mind: Picasso was pretty good at the photorealistic stuff too if you look at early stuff). Music needs soul and that you only get through interpretation.

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