Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids • Hacker News Board

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#71

Post by shantly » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 2:39 AM UTC

Ididntdothis wrote: post #21

It’s pretty much guaranteed that the next generation will grow up with the experience of always watched. Either they get watched by the parents who never let them do anything alone or by technology. Pretty sad in my view but almost inevitable.

Starting with kindergarten at my kids' school, they send home photos of the kids every so often during the day and also periodically have the kids post assignments they're working on (on their iPads—yes they give the kindergarteners iPads, god I wish they wouldn't but they do, and this is one of the good schools in the area).

I worry about the effect this near-real-time performance thing will have on them—it seems different, somehow, from just knowing your parents will see a graded paper come home in a week or two, to do it and immediately post it, where parents can comment and everything. It's creepy.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#72

Post by johnisgood » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 2:40 AM UTC

lovich wrote: post #12

leetcrew wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in general, you are responsible for whatever is done with your account/machine, authorized or not. if you are doing even the bare minimum to secure the computer, you should not be vulnerable to these kind of pranks from siblings/classmates. if it's unreasonable to expect a child to clear this bar, then they are not yet responsible enough to be entrusted with their own computing device.

That's not been true for almost every device I can think of other than firearms/explosives. If someone steals your car and crashes it are you responsible? If not why are computers different?

> If someone steals your car and crashes it are you responsible?

I know of at least one country in Eastern Europe where this is true. If someone steals your car and kills someone with it, you are in serious trouble. I do not agree with the law.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#73

Post by elliekelly » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 2:53 AM UTC

itronitron wrote: post #27

A while back in Texas my wife and I got a lovely call from one of our children's school counselors because our child's search history the previous evening, on their school issued chrome laptop, had included a search for symptoms of cyanide poisoning which apparently triggered one of the systems used to detect those sorts of things. It turns out that the search was related to a homework assignment for a book they had…

Did you and your child know about that systemic monitoring in advance? I mean were you explicitly told that search history (and presumably other activity) would be monitored by the school in real time?

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#74

Post by otakucode » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:00 AM UTC

mLuby wrote: post #64

itronitron wrote: post #27

A while back in Texas my wife and I got a lovely call from one of our children's school counselors because our child's search history the previous evening, on their school issued chrome laptop, had included a search for symptoms of cyanide poisoning which apparently triggered one of the systems used to detect those sorts of things. It turns out that the search was related to a homework assignment for a book they had…

Searches about suicide/murder-related topics could lead to life-saving interventions. One sympathizes with families that didn't or couldn't read the warning signs, and understands why they'd whole-heartedly support monitoring. The other side is that children learn there is an intense adult response to certain topics. That may lead to excessive interest in that topic. Or ever more secretive behavior. Or an inability t…

Every action has a consequence, and intentions do not matter. What will the consequences of millions of non-life-saving interventions be? We need to keep in mind that we are rolling these technologies out in an entirely blanket fashion, affecting millions of children and adolescents, and we are doing it to prevent exceptionally rare events. In the aftermath of Columbine, schools received lists of "warning signs" derived from nothing objective or accurate. These lists painted targets on the back of dozens of kids. At every single school. Every single year. The lists claimed to assist in identifying potential school shooters. Shooters who were students we know for a fact were present at only a single school, and only one or two every couple years. Why weren't these lists discarded immediately as they were very visibly and provably wrong? The answer to that question is what will support the continued expansion of surveillance in schools relentlessly, even in the face of evidence that it does more harm than good.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#75

Post by shantly » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:00 AM UTC

deogeo wrote: post #42

fetus8 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very firm agree. These devices were school owned, and technically "government" owned property. They were not handed out to the students to use however they pleased. They were to be utilized for digital text books, curriculum, and ancillary education resources that were designed by the teachers and administrators of the district. We locked the devices down so that student's couldn't get to certain kinds of apps, parts…

Take money via taxes, and give it back in the form of laptops - oh but now there's strings attached. That something is 'government owned' is no excuse for such a disgusting violation of privacy. Services paid by taxes should serve , not act as means to control people. > We (as the school district) were wholly responsible for what the student's did on these school owned devices. Why?? By what legal theory?? If person…

School administration operates under a not unjustified terror of having their careers ruined if anyone successfully accuses them of "letting something happen", whether it would have been reasonable that they stop it or not. Where "something" is usually bullying, any sex stuff, or self harm or suicide.

If you assume that for every decision they make the #1 concern is to make it as difficult as possible to personally blame them for anything, that'll be a good guide to understanding their behavior.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#76

Post by elliekelly » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:01 AM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #65

An interesting example of why cost of education can have unbounded growth. Parents who sue schools are actually suing society.

> Parents who sue schools are actually suing society.

As a member of society I, for one, appreciate their efforts to protect our collective privacy.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#77

Post by Enginerrrd » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 3:39 AM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #51

jupp0r wrote: post #48

This will be a perfect way to teach my children about online privacy, how computers and the internet work and how to circumvent surveillance.

If they realize what is going on. It might end up having the opposite effect: normalizing surveillance from a young age…

Thats the more likely scenario IMO.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#78

Post by jchw » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 4:34 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #35

ASalazarMX wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They said it was all ok because that the actual fingerprints aren't stored on the system, only information derived from the fingerprints I hate this blatantly flawed reasoning. The data collection is the problem, and it doesn't matter if you store pictures of fingers/faces/irises/ids or just their post-process signatures, it's still data collection.

Forcing students to generate data and then using it against them isn’t incidental to education, it’s the whole thing. Imagine having the right to edit, delete, and restrict processing of your grades and attendance records. Imagine having the right to an equal shot at college admission while declining to reveal any test scores. It would upend everything about school.

This is an exaggeration, literally one type of data is necessarily collected. Your fingerprints don’t factor into your college admissions.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#79

Post by munmaek » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 5:40 AM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #36

lovich wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does reasonable steps imply "prevent all bad actors in all cases"? Are the users expected to store their machines in fort Knox under armed guard? >if you are doing even the bare minimum to secure the computer, you should not be vulnerable to these kind of pranks from siblings/classmates. This is a statement that reads to me like "implementation is left as an exercise for the reader" type proclamation of how easy it i…

> Does reasonable steps imply "prevent all bad actors in all cases"? of course not, that's an incredibly uncharitable reading of "reasonable", not even an intelligence agency would set such an impossible standard. keep in mind this whole thread started with a comment about "what if your brother googles something bad as a prank?" I'm literally just talking about setting a password that isn't "password" and locking the…

Because this argument is tone deaf and ignores that kids are, well, kids.

Actual adults have terrible security practices. Are you seriously trying to hold kids, who had no choice in the matter, to the same security standards? They’re kids, and likely won’t even understand the gravity of the situation we’re discussing here.

These aren’t grown adults working at a company. They’re kids who had laptops foisted upon them.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#80

Post by MarcScott » Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 5:41 AM UTC

red-indian wrote: post #13

A few years ago I found out my nephew's Kindergarten had implemented fingerprint scanners for all students. They get to scan their fingerprint when checking in or out of lunch, going to the bathroom, arriving and leaving school. Promoted as a safety feature to ensure they knew where the kids were and that they were ok. I was asked to go in with my brother and talk to them about it. They said it was all ok because tha…

Almost every school in my area (UK) uses fingerprint scanners, including my son's. They're used only for purchasing food from the school's cafeteria.

I'm quite "privacy aware" and don't really have any problems with this. The schools act under GDPR, the data stored is just a hash of the fingerprint, and compared to the data held on the school management software, a fingerprint hash is pretty negligible.

My kid could pay in cash, but that introduces the possibility of losing it or having it stolen. They could use an ID card, which again can be lost and would still end up storing data.