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Life as a Second Class Citizen of the Web

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Re: Life as a Second Class Citizen of the Web

#71

Post by todayiamme »

cturner wrote: post #62
todayiamme wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't work. The scam artists and the spammers will learn how to spoof their IP address. Or, just start using VPNs and proxies. It doesn't matter to them as they will find a way around, precisely because their livelihood depends on it. On the other hand, the genuine users will be the one who suffer. They simply won't have the inclination to spend their entire time trying to engage in subterfuge against your "defens…

You can't spoof an IP address and expect to get the traffic back. They could use VPNs and proxies, and that would shift the focus from the third world to VPNs and proxies in the first world. If those operators don't comply, you could have them IP filtered also. But also - we have better options for dealing with nasty traffic when the originating IP is in the first world. It doesn't matter to them as they will find a…

The problem with fighting crime is escalation. In the real world, the mafias have to face logistical problems to create a response, but on the internet escalation is just a hack away. That's what I was trying to say. The solution, then, is not to "fight" crime, but to weed it out and choke it to death.

If you make just the right investments in nigeria then over time this will change. Everything else is temporarily. You might even figure out a way to use machine learning to statistically weed out the spammers visits by looking at how and where they click (bots and humans), but that peace will last for only so long.

The lasting solution would be to address the root cause of this, which is something I just don't know and understand. (I might not know what the solutions are, but I can see what isn't a solution)

Re: Life as a Second Class Citizen of the Web

#72

Post by BoppreH »

MichaelGG wrote: post #38
BoppreH wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works well for normal people. And these options can be configured from the "under the hood" preferences tab.

You're incorrect on both accounts. First, if my OS and browser preferences are stating English (or any language for that matter), why should the IP come into play? "Normal" people will already be using a localized OS and hence will send an Accept-Language with their preferred language (and perhaps country). Second, while you can go try to navigate the "Under the Hood" section in another language to switch languages,…

Sure, using the OS settings would be the most sane way, but I still see it working well 9 out of 10 times. Could be a lot better, but I don't think it deserves "taking the cake" of the localization-challenged software.

And ok, it was my fault for not testing the language option before mentioning it.

Re: Life as a Second Class Citizen of the Web

#73

Post by kakaylor »

Duff wrote: post #65
kakaylor wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the bigger issue is GDP and GDP per capita for both Nigeria and Africa as a whole: Nigeria GDP (PPP): $170bil Nigeria GDP per capita: $1754 I can understand why e-commerce companies might just choose to blacklist an entire country. There isn't much of a financial incentive to expend the resources for that small of a market. I am not trying to comment on whether this is justifiable or not, but that is the real…

GDP isn't the issue with Africa and the number of Western companies that want nothing to do with the continent. The issue is the governments like Nigeria are completely incapable of regulating what goes on inside of its borders. In cases like Nigeria, where the "419" scam is actually an measurably significant industry within the country, the scammers are probably in cahoots with the authorities. Why does e-commerce w…

Very good point.

I think the point on corruption and the rule of law is really significant. It goes beyond just e-commerce and into a whole economy. A government of men and not of law does not make for a thriving economy. If found these two maps on corruption and governance really interesting. They really speak to they trouble with doing e-commerce in Africa:

Transparency International: http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/...

Governance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Governance_Indicators

I wonder how ratings for China / India / Brazil will change in the next few decades as their per-capita GDP increases.

Re: Life as a Second Class Citizen of the Web

#74

Post by aristus »

kakaylor wrote: post #39
rmc wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small population? Nigeria has 180 million people. The rest of Africa has similar paypal issues, and a population of 600 million people

I think the bigger issue is GDP and GDP per capita for both Nigeria and Africa as a whole: Nigeria GDP (PPP): $170bil Nigeria GDP per capita: $1754 I can understand why e-commerce companies might just choose to blacklist an entire country. There isn't much of a financial incentive to expend the resources for that small of a market. I am not trying to comment on whether this is justifiable or not, but that is the real…

This is the same reasoning used 10 years ago to write off South America as a rounding error. It was frustrating and wrongheaded then, too.

Re: Life as a Second Class Citizen of the Web

#75

Post by mgkimsal »

kakaylor wrote: post #39
rmc wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small population? Nigeria has 180 million people. The rest of Africa has similar paypal issues, and a population of 600 million people

I think the bigger issue is GDP and GDP per capita for both Nigeria and Africa as a whole: Nigeria GDP (PPP): $170bil Nigeria GDP per capita: $1754 I can understand why e-commerce companies might just choose to blacklist an entire country. There isn't much of a financial incentive to expend the resources for that small of a market. I am not trying to comment on whether this is justifiable or not, but that is the real…

"There isn't much of a financial incentive to expend the resources for that small of a market."

While probably justified, it also leaves most of the country out of the growing trend towards global ecommerce, possibly encouraging more people to take up fraud as one of the few ways to make any money at all.

Re: Life as a Second Class Citizen of the Web

#76

Post by piramida »

_delirium wrote: post #35
BoppreH wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Paypal won't let me register and account, so I'll start mass spamming scams online." I'm not sure I follow. Also, I'm Brazilian and Paypal accepted my locally issued credit card just fine.

> "Paypal won't let me register and account, so I'll start mass spamming scams online." Something like: a bunch of reasonably well educated people with internet access, unable to participate in legitimate web commerce, are more likely to pursue illegitimate ways to make money online. Sort of the same problem you had in the 1990s with a bunch of viruses and scams coming out of Eastern Europe.

Exactly. You usually have no choice but to deal in electronic currencies which work in "3rd world" countries. And they most often serve scammers, porn sites, cialex pushers and so on. What are the chances of the legitimate online business which only can accept "dirty" payment methods?

Well, lucky for you then that Brazil is included. I really wish for the situation to change for the better, eventually. But it seems rather stupid, from a programmer point of view, to ban hundred plus countries because you can not fix exploitation of your system by several criminals. Somewhat egocentric, "ah fuck those countries who cares about them anyway", the problem can only get worse.

Internet does not know about borders, and you can't establish ghettos on Internet - it comes biting in the ass later.

Re: Life as a Second Class Citizen of the Web

#77

Post by piramida »

nhebb wrote: post #51
piramida wrote: post #19

Not only Nigeria, may I point out that most countries of the world, besides the very few top ones (US, Canada, Japan, Australia and Eurozone countries) are in about the same position regarding e-commerce and web acceptance in general. You can't start a paypal account, you can't pay online with locally issued credit cards, and you generally are prejudiced as a criminal. Which must be contributing to the online crime c…

> if you are already treated as a thief, why not just be one? Because that would just perpetual the problem.

Thank you that was my point.

Re: Life as a Second Class Citizen of the Web

#78

Post by igravious »

drdaeman wrote: post #33
BoppreH wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works well for normal people. And these options can be configured from the "under the hood" preferences tab.

What's "normal"?

"normal" generally means "the way how I think the world should work". Haven't you realized that yet? ;)

Re: Life as a Second Class Citizen of the Web

#79

Post by barrkel »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #67
barrkel wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, I agree. The thrust of my comment was more on backing up the assertion that treating Nigerians this way is actually unjust, immoral; not that it doesn't make business sense, or that it's a relatively small slice of the larger pie, etc.

I'm guessing there is all sorts of online commerce you don't engage in due to the risk of scams. Is that also unjust, due to the fact that your attempts to avoid a scam might deprive some legitimate people of your business?

That's a distinctly different question, for several reasons.

(1) Concentration of power: there's a qualitative difference between a large organization making an absolute and sustained decision on a corporate basis, and many distributed small organizations or individuals making ad-hoc iterated decisions on a case by case basis. Normal statistical variation means that in all likelihood, the market will simply be smaller, not all but extinguished.

(2) Your guess may be incorrect: I find it difficult to recollect an attempted online commercial transaction that I aborted owing to fear of a scam. Now, if you knew my personal circumstances, perhaps you'd be able to direct my attention to such cases; in lieu of that, can you be more specific in your guess, and at least give me a few examples? A few points on my behaviour: it's my personal policy never to buy anything in direct response to any advertisement or inducement, whether in person, over the phone, via email, or online, if I do not have a prior independent non-commercial relationship with that entity. I will pay more for a service or product that I have found myself rather than accept a similar service or product for a lower price if that service or product was directly advertised to me; I infer that the extra expenses in reaching me directly will be more than recouped via means that are not immediately obvious to me, such that the savings are probably illusory. Any time I have ever engaged in online commerce, it directly or indirectly started out with a Google search for the product or product category in question, or for a store name found either in a previous search, by recommendation, or an online version of a brick-and-mortar store.

(3) Freedom of action and the rewards to that action: most Nigerians in Nigeria have little scope for changing their situation to evade these policies; from the original position, I would not like to be in their situation. In converse, the problem of not being able to find customers is distinctly different: one may choose to sell something else, to a different market, and via a different medium. One of the risks of creating a business is that there may not be a viable market, but one of the rewards is profit when the market is viable. The risk / reward correspondence with consumers doesn't seem convincing: at best, the consumer can obtain what they wanted at a fair price; the upside is very limited.

Re: Life as a Second Class Citizen of the Web

#80

Post by kakaylor »

aristus wrote: post #74
kakaylor wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the bigger issue is GDP and GDP per capita for both Nigeria and Africa as a whole: Nigeria GDP (PPP): $170bil Nigeria GDP per capita: $1754 I can understand why e-commerce companies might just choose to blacklist an entire country. There isn't much of a financial incentive to expend the resources for that small of a market. I am not trying to comment on whether this is justifiable or not, but that is the real…

This is the same reasoning used 10 years ago to write off South America as a rounding error. It was frustrating and wrongheaded then, too.

I understand what your saying, but I am not sure I agree (at least from the US perspective) that South America has been written off as a rounding error in the last few decades. I think we have been on a trajectory from the early 1990's (starting with NAFTA) and continuing into the early 2000's (with the start of CAFTA) to today where we are near ratifying CAFTA. The next step is a full South American free trade agreement.

I don't think US industry has ever dismissed South America as a rounding error. They get the huge economic importance it has. Rather, we've had some feet dragging from unions (and to a smaller extent a little xenophobia, but I think this is really really small when it comes to Free Trade Agreements). Give the US another decade or two and there will be a full on American Free Trade Agreement.

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