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Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

nytimes.com

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Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#91

Post by ljf »

weberc2 wrote: post #49
ljf wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://rewire.news/article/2015/07/15/hobby-lobby-blocking-...

Does that article (and publication) strike you as trustworthy? Does it appear that the author and publication aspire to present a balanced perspective? Would you be persuaded if I linked to a Fox News (or similar) article on the issue?

https://time.com/2941323/supreme-court-contraception-ruling-...

It was pretty well reported - I posted the first link I found assuming that you hadn't heard of the case.

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#92

Post by romaaeterna »

microtherion wrote: post #82
romaaeterna wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That anything was stolen is a new accusation. The accusations against Obbink previously have all been impropriety-related, related to dealing with the Hobby Lobby people at all. It's rather surprising (perhaps "fantastical" ?) that all of the rumors turned up such a smoking gun after all these years. This is a case where the 80%/20% rule didn't apply, and the real answer turned out to be 150%. Here's where things sto…

It seems to me that your link and its comments give plenty of hints that property is suspected of having been misappropriated, e.g. "The sheer volume of all these new texts was raising concern." or https://brentnongbri.com/2019/07/03/dirk-obbink-and-the-muse... Given that some of the people involved are deep pocketed and litigious, and British defamation law appears to be fairly plaintiff friendly, the participants i…

Sure, but people were thinking artifact smugglers and shady dealers and Obbink looking the other way, not theft from collections under his own care. Obbink is famous and well-known. He has published some of the most important papyri of the last decade. This is pretty brazen, if true.

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#93

Post by TimTheTinker »

mbostleman wrote: post #87
js2 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The headline is factually correct. The contract was made in 2013 between Dr. Obbink and Hobby Lobby Stores, not between him and the museum, which didn't yet exist. The first sentence of the third paragraph reads: "Thirteen fragments from the collection were found in the Museum of the Bible, a Washington institution founded by Hobby Lobby’s evangelical Christian owners, the Green family." So the headline is correct an…

"but it points out that other museums could too" That's the bias right there. There is a broader problem here, but that's not indicated in the headline. Hobby Lobby was specifically targeted in the headline to create emotional engagement. Not the end of the world. Not a vast conspiracy - they need to sell clicks and paper. But not totally honest either.

That's a good point, but astute readers aren't likely to be misled by headlines alone.

Unfortunately, headline scanning for confirmation bias of one's current beliefs is rampant. This means (a) biased headlines will get more clicks, and (b) such headlines do constitute a certain lack of honesty in journalism, because of the likelihood that they will mislead many readers.

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#94

Post by rayiner »

mcguire wrote: post #81
romaaeterna wrote: post #22

The Obbink stuff has been on slow boil for a few years now. Part of the problem is that even ancient papyri texts aren't actually worth anything, unless they are really famous, but they are getting caught up by all the export regulations for gold and jewels (sometimes under new interpretations of law). Obbink has made some poor decisions, but I feel that the rules have changed on his watch. Also, while "Hobby Lobby"…

As someone else pointed out, Hobby Lobby and the Bible Museum have rather close relations beginning before the Museum existed. Their acquisition techniques have also been quite sketchy since that time. (Yes, Hobby Lobby attempted to smuggle cuneiform tablets into the US as "tile samples". https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/united-states-files-civ... ) Further, ancient artifacts have value beyond that of the cost of…

If you read the complaint that you linked to, the government alleged that the foreign sellers shipped the items into the U.S. as "tile samples" and nowhere alleges that Hobby Lobby knew anything about or had anything to do with that. That's a fundamentally important distinction.

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#95

Post by mtnGoat »

rayiner wrote: post #94
mcguire wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone else pointed out, Hobby Lobby and the Bible Museum have rather close relations beginning before the Museum existed. Their acquisition techniques have also been quite sketchy since that time. (Yes, Hobby Lobby attempted to smuggle cuneiform tablets into the US as "tile samples". https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/united-states-files-civ... ) Further, ancient artifacts have value beyond that of the cost of…

If you read the complaint that you linked to, the government alleged that the foreign sellers shipped the items into the U.S. as "tile samples" and nowhere alleges that Hobby Lobby knew anything about or had anything to do with that. That's a fundamentally important distinction.

yet they settled out of court for $3m and had to return the goods... id say its pretty safe to say they are up to some shady stuff, otherwise why not fight in court to clear your name and save the $3m ?

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#96

Post by completelylegit »

romaaeterna wrote: post #22

The Obbink stuff has been on slow boil for a few years now. Part of the problem is that even ancient papyri texts aren't actually worth anything, unless they are really famous, but they are getting caught up by all the export regulations for gold and jewels (sometimes under new interpretations of law). Obbink has made some poor decisions, but I feel that the rules have changed on his watch. Also, while "Hobby Lobby"…

Hobby Lobby illegally purchased and imported thousands of antiquities looted from Iraqi museums.

They knew what they were doing.

Thats part of why their “museum” is frowned upon.

That and the stunning amount of items without any provenance beyond the word of shady antiquity “dealers”

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#97

Post by js2 »

mbostleman wrote: post #87
js2 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The headline is factually correct. The contract was made in 2013 between Dr. Obbink and Hobby Lobby Stores, not between him and the museum, which didn't yet exist. The first sentence of the third paragraph reads: "Thirteen fragments from the collection were found in the Museum of the Bible, a Washington institution founded by Hobby Lobby’s evangelical Christian owners, the Green family." So the headline is correct an…

"but it points out that other museums could too" That's the bias right there. There is a broader problem here, but that's not indicated in the headline. Hobby Lobby was specifically targeted in the headline to create emotional engagement. Not the end of the world. Not a vast conspiracy - they need to sell clicks and paper. But not totally honest either.

It's an article about Hobby Lobby, not a generic article about all museums.

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#98

Post by rayiner »

mtnGoat wrote: post #95
rayiner wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the complaint that you linked to, the government alleged that the foreign sellers shipped the items into the U.S. as "tile samples" and nowhere alleges that Hobby Lobby knew anything about or had anything to do with that. That's a fundamentally important distinction.

yet they settled out of court for $3m and had to return the goods... id say its pretty safe to say they are up to some shady stuff, otherwise why not fight in court to clear your name and save the $3m ?

The government was entitled to seize the goods under civil asset forfeiture regardless of whether Hobby Lobby did anything wrong. (All that matters was whether the goods were actually looted, not whether Hobby Lobby knew anything about that.)

As to settling for $3 million, it could easily cost that much money to litigate the case. Critically, the government didn't get Hobby Lobby to admit to anything in the stipulated settlement. The government typically pushes for some admissions as part of a settlement. In the HSBC case, for example, there area a whole raft of admissions: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/legacy/2012/....

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#99

Post by mmanfrin »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #90
mmanfrin wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You may not like certain specifics of their employee healthcare policy, but having such a policy does not imply hate on their part I personally disagree, and I disagree strongly.

You're saying that in order to enact such a policy, a person would have to feel "intense or passionate dislike" for certain people. I don't see the logical connection between the two. Could you explain how the one implies the other?

How on earth did you get that from what I said?

I think they are a hateful group because they so vehemently wanted to deny medical access through their mandated healthcare program.

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#100

Post by droithomme »

Did Oxford University legitimately acquire the ancient texts in the first place or did they steal them/acquire them from thieves, as well? What's the chain of custody on any of these? Why did Hobby Lobby return the many times stolen texts to Oxford instead of to whoever the actual owner is.

And when will the stolen Elgin Marbles of the Acropolis be returned by the British Museum to Greece?

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