Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids • Hacker News Board

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#31

Post by HarryHirsch » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 5:34 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #25

lovich wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not been true for almost every device I can think of other than firearms/explosives. If someone steals your car and crashes it are you responsible? If not why are computers different?

when a computer is provided to you by an organization, you are usually obligated to take reasonable steps to prevent its misuse and especially to prevent misuse of your credentials. do you really disagree that this is the case?

Everyone agrees with that, unfortunately if an unfortunate kid leaves their computer unsecured in a school environment they risk a criminal record if a prankster searches Google with the keywords that trigger the system. In a corporate environment that just won't happen. It's madness, but "if you see something, say something". Or something.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#32

Post by itronitron » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #17

markovbot wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Certain keywords in searches would prompt email notifications too. That is so unbelievably disgusting. This kind of abusive invasion of privacy should be a crime.

In a perverted sense, this is an opportunity to teach the children a very important lesson: if you're using a machine or network owned and operated by your employer (or, by extension, your school), then you should be scrupulous about only using it for work (or school) business.

I am under the impression since these devices are issued by schools that they are intended to facilitate learning, not 'school business'.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#33

Post by bitwize » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 5:47 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #5

fetus8 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mobile Device Managers (MDM) and a proxy. Route the device' s searches back to the school's network and monitor via the proxy. I worked in a school district for a couple years where we did this. Certain keywords in searches would prompt email notifications too.

Imagine if your sibling/classmates decided to "prank" you by searching up certain terms when you're not looking.

My first computer was a Commodore VIC-20. The more I hear about shit like this, the more I think that should be this generation's first computer, too. Something they can't hurt themselves with.

Bring back Apple IIs in the classrooms. And the TV/VCR combo on the wheeled cart.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#34

Post by heavyset_go » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 6:01 PM UTC

red-indian wrote: post #13

A few years ago I found out my nephew's Kindergarten had implemented fingerprint scanners for all students. They get to scan their fingerprint when checking in or out of lunch, going to the bathroom, arriving and leaving school. Promoted as a safety feature to ensure they knew where the kids were and that they were ok. I was asked to go in with my brother and talk to them about it. They said it was all ok because tha…

> * it's kind of weird that we are opposed to children's safety.*

They're hoovering up PII that belongs to children and giving it to some company, and parents have to just trust that both the school and said company can keep it safe.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#35

Post by closeparen » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

ASalazarMX wrote: post #15

red-indian wrote: post #13

A few years ago I found out my nephew's Kindergarten had implemented fingerprint scanners for all students. They get to scan their fingerprint when checking in or out of lunch, going to the bathroom, arriving and leaving school. Promoted as a safety feature to ensure they knew where the kids were and that they were ok. I was asked to go in with my brother and talk to them about it. They said it was all ok because tha…

> They said it was all ok because that the actual fingerprints aren't stored on the system, only information derived from the fingerprints I hate this blatantly flawed reasoning. The data collection is the problem, and it doesn't matter if you store pictures of fingers/faces/irises/ids or just their post-process signatures, it's still data collection.

Forcing students to generate data and then using it against them isn’t incidental to education, it’s the whole thing. Imagine having the right to edit, delete, and restrict processing of your grades and attendance records. Imagine having the right to an equal shot at college admission while declining to reveal any test scores. It would upend everything about school.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#36

Post by leetcrew » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 6:09 PM UTC

lovich wrote: post #29

leetcrew wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when a computer is provided to you by an organization, you are usually obligated to take reasonable steps to prevent its misuse and especially to prevent misuse of your credentials. do you really disagree that this is the case?

Does reasonable steps imply "prevent all bad actors in all cases"? Are the users expected to store their machines in fort Knox under armed guard? >if you are doing even the bare minimum to secure the computer, you should not be vulnerable to these kind of pranks from siblings/classmates. This is a statement that reads to me like "implementation is left as an exercise for the reader" type proclamation of how easy it i…

> Does reasonable steps imply "prevent all bad actors in all cases"?

of course not, that's an incredibly uncharitable reading of "reasonable", not even an intelligence agency would set such an impossible standard.

keep in mind this whole thread started with a comment about "what if your brother googles something bad as a prank?" I'm literally just talking about setting a password that isn't "password" and locking the computer when you walk away from it. this will protect you from attacks by the vast majority of schoolchildren. if a child can't prevent their friends from misusing their school account, they really shouldn't have one. I'm not sure why this is considered snide or controversial at all.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#37

Post by leetcrew » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 6:15 PM UTC

novok wrote: post #30

leetcrew wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when a computer is provided to you by an organization, you are usually obligated to take reasonable steps to prevent its misuse and especially to prevent misuse of your credentials. do you really disagree that this is the case?

What part about stolen don't you understand? People take reasonable steps to secure their cars, because it's financially painful, but it still happens!

why are you and others talking about stolen cars and hardware attacks in a thread about schoolchild pranks?

I don't think most organizations would hold you at fault if someone stole your computer and used a hardware exploit to gain access to your account. but if you have a blatantly terrible password or just leave the machine unsecured in a cafe, they will probably hold you accountable for whatever happens. I know my employer would.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#38

Post by j8014 » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 6:32 PM UTC

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #28

fetus8 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very firm agree. These devices were school owned, and technically "government" owned property. They were not handed out to the students to use however they pleased. They were to be utilized for digital text books, curriculum, and ancillary education resources that were designed by the teachers and administrators of the district. We locked the devices down so that student's couldn't get to certain kinds of apps, parts…

Why should we just give public schools a pass for providing kids with email addresses and other adult technologies that have no real educational value? Giving devices to kids is not saving on educational costs, and it's not making their backpacks any lighter. Books don't require tech support lines, chat bots, or surveillance tech to keep it all humming smoothly. But worse of all, it's totally outside the proper purvi…

Books? Who uses books anymore? My kids have had laptops for school since the 2nd grade, they are in 5th and 8th grade now. Syllabus & courses, homework, communication, research all on their laptops. Everything is interactive, videos and classroom lectures recorded. No paper, they never miss a thing, can move ahead in assignments or review old.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#39

Post by jolmg » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #34

red-indian wrote: post #13

A few years ago I found out my nephew's Kindergarten had implemented fingerprint scanners for all students. They get to scan their fingerprint when checking in or out of lunch, going to the bathroom, arriving and leaving school. Promoted as a safety feature to ensure they knew where the kids were and that they were ok. I was asked to go in with my brother and talk to them about it. They said it was all ok because tha…

> * it's kind of weird that we are opposed to children's safety.* They're hoovering up PII that belongs to children and giving it to some company, and parents have to just trust that both the school and said company can keep it safe.

Are you saying that it's good because they only need to trust these 2 entities? Isn't it better to not have to trust either? There wasn't a need to provide this info before.

Re: Under digital surveillance: how American schools spy on millions of kids

#40

Post by deogeo » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 7:06 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #34

red-indian wrote: post #13

A few years ago I found out my nephew's Kindergarten had implemented fingerprint scanners for all students. They get to scan their fingerprint when checking in or out of lunch, going to the bathroom, arriving and leaving school. Promoted as a safety feature to ensure they knew where the kids were and that they were ok. I was asked to go in with my brother and talk to them about it. They said it was all ok because tha…

> * it's kind of weird that we are opposed to children's safety.* They're hoovering up PII that belongs to children and giving it to some company, and parents have to just trust that both the school and said company can keep it safe.

> trust that both the school and said company can keep it safe.

Safe, to be used later to build a profile of your child, and sell it to employers, insurance companies, the police, intelligence agencies, or anyone else willing to pay a few cents or send a subpoena.