Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession • Hacker News Board

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#201

Post by xienze » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 4:01 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #127

xienze wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're a) expanding the labor pool with b) people willing to work for less money than the locals. How you think that doesn't drive down wages is beyond me.

You're making a positive proposition in the domain of economics. You're obligated to show evidence of it if you can, or at least propose a mechanism people can debate. It's entirely feasible to do so. But good luck with that; I think the data shows that it's not a very pronounced effect.

> But good luck with that; I think the data shows that it's not a very pronounced effect.

Yes, you're right, H1-B visas and offshoring have done wonders for the average US software engineer's wages.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#202

Post by mayniac » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 4:09 PM UTC

_ylmx wrote: post #55

I can't understand what people actually have against capitalism. Most of the times when I hear about the problems of my generation much of it comes down to personal choice. You don't have to go to an expensive college, you don't have to live in the "it" part of town, and you don't have to use your credit card. I've heard so many people complain about the injustices of the world, but at the same time they pay twice as…

This comment is just "millennials are poor because of avocado on toast". There is an untold number of anti-capitalist academics who would take issue with this.

Not to mention that equating anti-capitalism with wanting "the government to come in and take care of you" is insulting to communists, anarchists, and other anti-state anti-capitalists.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#203

Post by danharaj » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 4:11 PM UTC

Will_Parker wrote: post #197

danharaj wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it going too far to call someone "they" or even a neopronoun like "xie"? What cost is it to you that you need to vigorously debate it?

I'm not interested in debating it here, because it could damage my career, which is my point. In fact, even debating whether I should be able to debate it could damage my career. I believe this widespread use of silencing tactics, by implicit threat, has gone too far.

There are a great many things you can't debate about people. For example, you would be severely censured if you debated whether your colleague's chronic illness really was as bad as they claim it is.

If the position is "I should be able to question and debate anything about my colleagues" then the position is obviously absurd and I would ask a person holding such a view to reevaluate what they think society is. I don't think you would hold such a position.

So, why are you troubled that you can't debate this particular thing, when I'm sure there are things you shouldn't debate about your colleagues?

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#204

Post by jimmywanger » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

tangent128 wrote: post #189

jimmywanger wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People want purpose, but they also need their basic needs met. That means our garbage would never get collected or our toilets cleaned, because I don't think anybody's intended purpose is doing sanitation. If you're just assigning jobs to give a purpose, you're forcing labor. If not you have dirty living quarters and a glut of artists.

Make the pay high enough to match the value generated, and you'll find enough janitors and garbage collectors.

How do you make the pay high enough? Compel labor, print money, or some sort of complicated metric?

"Based on family background, education, and IQ tests, we estimate that your best job is electrical technician."

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#205

Post by vearwhershuh » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #99

wayoutthere wrote: post #8

In the US, it's less active protest and more things like slacking off heavily at work because it's a treadmill we can't win. We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. We as a nation have basically told people "no, you can't have a comfortable life or save for retirement because your parents' generation still needs to get 10% annual growth to make their retirement mat…

>> We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. Pride? Character? Respect from colleagues?

> Pride? Character? Respect from colleagues?

“We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise.

We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst.

We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.”

-CS Lewis

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#206

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

jimmywanger wrote: post #204

tangent128 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make the pay high enough to match the value generated, and you'll find enough janitors and garbage collectors.

How do you make the pay high enough? Compel labor, print money, or some sort of complicated metric? "Based on family background, education, and IQ tests, we estimate that your best job is electrical technician."

[deleted]

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#207

Post by zip1234 » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 4:17 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #109

Double_a_92 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a relationship like this: All wealthy countries are capitalist. Some capitalist countries are wealthy.

I am not sure that's accurate. UAE and Saudi are monarchies. Singapore is very socialist, if you look at their housing policy, it's entirely run by the state. They even allocate apartment to ensure that different ethnic groups mix. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cjPgNBNeLU Also, I would not consider China poor today, and certainly even less so in the future.

China has a capitalist market economy. They do have some degree of government ownership of companies and the government has asserted that they are not capitalist as the communist party is in charge and they have to maintain face. However, in practice, they are on the capitalist spectrum. Also, monarchies can be capitalist. Capitalism just means the state doesn't own everything and collect all the profits.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#208

Post by cryoshon » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 4:17 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #149

cryoshon wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pride, character, and respect from colleagues are things that don't pay the bills, even though they're nice to have. i know this is sounds like a snarky and low-effort response, but it is not intentional. it's just the way things are, and there isn't really a diplomatic way of saying it.

> "pride, character, and respect from colleagues are things that don't pay the bill" I can name several dozen colleagues I've worked for over the years who will vouch for me and help me get a job if I should ever need it and that does pay the bills. People who say things like the above quote, can't.

what if you met those colleagues at a relatively low-wage job, and neither you nor anyone else who will vouch for you has advanced very far beyond that low wage level?

sure, they can get you a job, but it will be a horizontal move for you if you are currently employed, and certainly no step up from your prior employment if you're suddenly unemployed.

consider that for many young people outside of the software and finance worlds, this is precisely the situation. all the good reputation in the world doesn't much matter if it doesn't get you any further than where you are.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#209

Post by toomuchtodo » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

DuskStar wrote: post #200

bsanr2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you either incentivize higher economic volume or you get deflation. They tried printing money and giving it to the banks to loan because they're afraid to do the one rational thing there is and, in doing so, piss off the wealthy. But now that it seems that we're going to see instability and unrest no matter what, it's time to play that card, and hopefully shorten our inevitable economic Dark Age:…

> Wealth tax. HAHAHAHAHA If anything, a wealth tax is what turns things from "depression" to "catastrophic failure" - capital flight would be a massive problem. And even ignoring any effects from changing incentives, why would taking from the most productive and giving to the government improve the economy?

Adam Neumann (WeWork) coaxed billions of dollars out of Softbank for nothing of value in return. I would not consider that productive. Having wealth does not immediately confirm the activity that allowed for that wealth was productive, nor that one is productive for having amassed wealth.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#210

Post by notacoward » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

perceptronas wrote: post #10

>After the 2008 recession, President Obama and the Democrats effectively saved capitalism from itself; a more radical leadership would fight to replace it with a better system. This time around there may be far more pressure from below to do just that, especially with a more organized left and more class conscious young people. As a former soviet occupied country citizen, I am amazed that westerners would want to ove…

There were many differences between the Soviet Union and the US. Nominal socialism vs. nominal capitalism was only one, and many would argue not the biggest. Personally, I'm amazed that so many people who suffered under deeply authoritarian regimes seem to support the authoritarian party in current US politics. Members of exclusive clubs colluding with each other outside of the market or public view tends to work out similarly regardless of whether it's the back rooms of Wall Street or Washington DC (and usually it's both).