Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts • Hacker News Board

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#31

Post by romaaeterna » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:05 PM UTC

js2 wrote: post #27

romaaeterna wrote: post #22

The Obbink stuff has been on slow boil for a few years now. Part of the problem is that even ancient papyri texts aren't actually worth anything, unless they are really famous, but they are getting caught up by all the export regulations for gold and jewels (sometimes under new interpretations of law). Obbink has made some poor decisions, but I feel that the rules have changed on his watch. Also, while "Hobby Lobby"…

The headline is factually correct. The contract was made in 2013 between Dr. Obbink and Hobby Lobby Stores, not between him and the museum, which didn't yet exist. The first sentence of the third paragraph reads: "Thirteen fragments from the collection were found in the Museum of the Bible, a Washington institution founded by Hobby Lobby’s evangelical Christian owners, the Green family." So the headline is correct an…

Thanks for that link. I'm afraid that events have moved faster than me. The last time I looked into this (6 months ago or so), EES was still standing behind Obbink on the various accusations related to him and Hobby Lobby, which at that point merely involved authenticating papyri sold at auction (the same lot in which the new Sappho was discovered a few years ago).

EDIT:

I see that Obbink claims that the "documents being used against him" are fraudulent. Whether he means the contract or the EES records is hard to say.

https://variantreadings.files.wordpress.com/2019/10/obbink-s...

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#32

Post by ReggieJJJ » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

It seems extremely prejudicial and even driven by a bigoted and hateful motivation to emphasize the purchaser of the fragment when the story is really about the person who is accused of illegally taking and selling the fragments.

It would be like writing the headline like this "Oxford is Officially and International Illegal Historical Artifacts Dealing Organized Criminal Enterprise." if one were to have a bigoted bias against Oxford.

When one takes a step back the far worse villain then Hobby Lobby, is definitely Oxford, which was apparently complicit in this type of activity by way of insufficient controls to prevent it. But even that would be ridiculous in many ways, but not as ridiculous as blaming the other victim Hobby Lobby, that was defrauded by the Professor who also used Oxford's credentials and authority to make the sale.

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#33

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:09 PM UTC

light_hue_1 wrote: post #28

romaaeterna wrote: post #22

The Obbink stuff has been on slow boil for a few years now. Part of the problem is that even ancient papyri texts aren't actually worth anything, unless they are really famous, but they are getting caught up by all the export regulations for gold and jewels (sometimes under new interpretations of law). Obbink has made some poor decisions, but I feel that the rules have changed on his watch. Also, while "Hobby Lobby"…

The fact that you can't read the article shows. You are totally misrepresenting what is happening now and what happened in the past to push a particular political agenda. This has nothing to do with export laws. The documents were the property of Oxford in a collection that he oversaw. Now Oxford discovered that he sold the documents. Also, ancient artifacts are protected regardless of their value. That is what keeps…

[deleted]

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#34

Post by hristov » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:10 PM UTC

romaaeterna wrote: post #22

The Obbink stuff has been on slow boil for a few years now. Part of the problem is that even ancient papyri texts aren't actually worth anything, unless they are really famous, but they are getting caught up by all the export regulations for gold and jewels (sometimes under new interpretations of law). Obbink has made some poor decisions, but I feel that the rules have changed on his watch. Also, while "Hobby Lobby"…

I doubt the rules have changed much on his watch. The basic laws regarding theft have stayed more or less the same in England on his watch. These ancient manuscripts did not belong to Obbink, they belonged to the Egypt Exploration Society and Obbink was merely employed to take care of them, and had no right to sell them. The facts seem pretty clear to me.

As another poster said, putting "hobby lobby" in the title was not meant to denigrate anyone, it is in fact the correct description of the facts because the Hobby Lobby company actually purchased the manuscripts.

As far as value goes, I am not sure how much these texts were worth, I doubt they were worth nothing. And obviously, low value is not an excuse for stealing. Unless the Egypt Exploration society completely disclaims ownership of the manuscripts (e.g., they toss them in the trash), these things are their property and cannot be taken, regardless of their supposed market value.

Now one can argue that the Egypt Exploration Society themselves stole the stuff from Egypt. That may be true, a lot of the ancient things in English museum are stolen, but I do not know the details for these particular manuscripts. If the Hobby Lobby founder had his museum in Egypt and put the manuscripts there he might call himself a heroic righter of historic wrongs, but he doesn't so that is not really an issue.

I am not sure exactly why are you complaining about bigotry.

BTW, for those that cannot read the nyt article, the NYPost more or less copied it. https://nypost.com/2019/10/17/renowned-oxford-professor-accu...

Note to the NY Times: your paywalls are forcing innocent people to read the NY Post!

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#35

Post by weberc2 » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:18 PM UTC

driverdan wrote: post #26

> a big part of it is that they have "Bible" in their museum name, and that gets all the bigots out in arms. This is laughable considering Hobby Lobby is run by religious bigots.

Is there anything to substantiate this, or is this a generic "Christian therefore bigot" slur?

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#36

Post by notac » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:21 PM UTC

driverdan wrote: post #26

> a big part of it is that they have "Bible" in their museum name, and that gets all the bigots out in arms. This is laughable considering Hobby Lobby is run by religious bigots.

You know, it wasn’t so long ago that “take the high road” was the common mantra. Turns out, even if you disagree with people or think they’re wrong, you can still behave with decorum. It makes everything more pleasant.

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#37

Post by rayiner » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:27 PM UTC

light_hue_1 wrote: post #28

romaaeterna wrote: post #22

The Obbink stuff has been on slow boil for a few years now. Part of the problem is that even ancient papyri texts aren't actually worth anything, unless they are really famous, but they are getting caught up by all the export regulations for gold and jewels (sometimes under new interpretations of law). Obbink has made some poor decisions, but I feel that the rules have changed on his watch. Also, while "Hobby Lobby"…

The fact that you can't read the article shows. You are totally misrepresenting what is happening now and what happened in the past to push a particular political agenda. This has nothing to do with export laws. The documents were the property of Oxford in a collection that he oversaw. Now Oxford discovered that he sold the documents. Also, ancient artifacts are protected regardless of their value. That is what keeps…

Your post is extremely misleading with respect to the Iraqi antiquities case. Here is the Government's complaint in that case: https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/press-release/file/978096/.... And here is the stipulation of settlement entered into by the Government and Hobby lobby: http://www.artcrimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/3....

First, "they" did not "intentionally forg[e] documents" or "fak[e] the import country and contents." The government never accused them of that. That conduct is all attributed to Hobby Lobby's dealers, which are addressed under the heading "Additional in rem Defendants" in the complaint. The government never alleges that Hobby Lobby knew about any of that conduct.

Second, Hobby Lobby did not "pay a 3 million fine." That implies that the government proved the allegations in the complaint. It is critical to understand that the government didn't need to prove that Hobby Lobby itself did anything wrong or knew anything. The government seized the incoming shipment under civil asset forfeiture. Under the customs laws, it only needed to establish that it was more likely than not that the items were exported in violation of Iraqi law. Hobby Lobby, as the buyer, had the right to contest that allegation, but it could not prevail simply by showing that it was innocent.

Hobby Lobby agreed to forfeit the items and settle for $3 million, but the stipulation of settlement does not admit wrongdoing. The company has consistently maintained that its dealers told it the origin of the items was Israel, and that their failure was not exercising proper precautions in verifying that information.

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#38

Post by serioussecurity » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:30 PM UTC

notac wrote: post #36

driverdan wrote: post #26

> a big part of it is that they have "Bible" in their museum name, and that gets all the bigots out in arms. This is laughable considering Hobby Lobby is run by religious bigots.

You know, it wasn’t so long ago that “take the high road” was the common mantra. Turns out, even if you disagree with people or think they’re wrong, you can still behave with decorum. It makes everything more pleasant.

Does that hold when they're actively working to harm you and yours?

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#39

Post by skywhopper » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:33 PM UTC

romaaeterna wrote: post #22

The Obbink stuff has been on slow boil for a few years now. Part of the problem is that even ancient papyri texts aren't actually worth anything, unless they are really famous, but they are getting caught up by all the export regulations for gold and jewels (sometimes under new interpretations of law). Obbink has made some poor decisions, but I feel that the rules have changed on his watch. Also, while "Hobby Lobby"…

You are trying really hard to obfuscate the issues here. The accusation is that Obbink stole the fragments and sold them.

Using the correct name of the corporation to which he sold the stolen fragments is not "a fun way to denigrate the people involved".

As far as the museum, given their clear willingness to skirt legal and ethical boundaries in the acquisition of these artifacts, it's a major problem that these are the people own such a vast collection of important history.

Re: Oxford Professor Is Accused of Selling Ancient Texts

#40

Post by skywhopper » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:39 PM UTC

ReggieJJJ wrote: post #32

It seems extremely prejudicial and even driven by a bigoted and hateful motivation to emphasize the purchaser of the fragment when the story is really about the person who is accused of illegally taking and selling the fragments. It would be like writing the headline like this "Oxford is Officially and International Illegal Historical Artifacts Dealing Organized Criminal Enterprise." if one were to have a bigoted bia…

You are suggesting here that when purchasing such artifacts for a major museum collection, that the Hobby Lobby/Bible Museum owners have zero responsibility to verify the provenance of the artifacts and the legality of their sale. All they have to do is just not ask any probing questions, and they should be able to claim that "we didn't know they were stolen!" Sorry, but that's outrageous.