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Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

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Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#41

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

jtcruthers wrote: post #28
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't comment on US, but Germany and some other EU countries have fertility rate below 1.5. Without immigration the system will collapse as pensioners will outnumber working population. EDIT: this is an observation, I am not advocating 'substitution'

Yes, lets bring in loads of uneducated, poor immigrants instead of addressing the issues causing fertility rates below the replacement level. Why let our children have families when we can import them for cheaper?

> addressing the issues causing fertility rates below the replacement level

Myself and many of my friends who have decided to have zero children or only one child rather late in life, cite the burden of having to take care of children, when one is already tired after work, one would like to pursue leisure activities that do not involve children present, etc. Even in countries where the state provides abundant infrastructure to minimize the financial expense of childrearing, birthrates are still low because of the time and effort expense that remains. So, how do you address that issue? Telling people to just suck it up and accept childbearing as their duty isn’t going to work.

Immigrants are often coming from countries where religious and cultural pressures in favor of childbearing are maintaining the birthrate higher than in the West, but even in those regions birthrates are gradually falling as their countries become more developed.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#42

Post by tempguy9999 »

jtcruthers wrote: post #28
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't comment on US, but Germany and some other EU countries have fertility rate below 1.5. Without immigration the system will collapse as pensioners will outnumber working population. EDIT: this is an observation, I am not advocating 'substitution'

Yes, lets bring in loads of uneducated, poor immigrants instead of addressing the issues causing fertility rates below the replacement level. Why let our children have families when we can import them for cheaper?

Yes, let's give the natives a breeding bonus! That'll solve it.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#43

Post by zanny »

perceptronas wrote: post #10

>After the 2008 recession, President Obama and the Democrats effectively saved capitalism from itself; a more radical leadership would fight to replace it with a better system. This time around there may be far more pressure from below to do just that, especially with a more organized left and more class conscious young people. As a former soviet occupied country citizen, I am amazed that westerners would want to ove…

It's a fearmongering technique to defend the status quo to say one must defend capitalism because the only other option is a totalitarian Stalinist cult of personality dystopia.

It does, however, reflect on the structural complexity of distributing power. Be it capitalists or a dictator at the top social organization gravitates towards being top heavy. It takes unified, active, and uncompromising effort on the part of the powerless to prevent the vaccum at the top from being filled if removed.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#44

Post by ryandrake »

wayoutthere wrote: post #8

In the US, it's less active protest and more things like slacking off heavily at work because it's a treadmill we can't win. We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. We as a nation have basically told people "no, you can't have a comfortable life or save for retirement because your parents' generation still needs to get 10% annual growth to make their retirement mat…

Future generations are going to look back critically at this time. So much risk taken, so much sacrificed and burned up, so much opportunity, labor, economic freedom spent, all so that a tiny sliver of people born roughly between 1920 and 1950 can have retirement security, second homes, vacations, and on average a massively higher standard of living than anyone else that’s ever lived or will live in the future. When my grandchildren are serving their feudal lord to survive and their grandchildren are going to war with the next tribe over for access to fresh water, maybe someone will look back and shake their heads at what we all squandered.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#45

Post by klodolph »

goldstone26 wrote: post #33
toomuchtodo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would likely improve under democratic socialism (which is not the same model as communism or socialism). Especially if we disconnect healthcare from employment allowing workers more freedom to pick employers or entrepreneurship. People want purpose, but they also need their basic needs met. They have to have hope they won't spend their lives on an economic treadmill where one slip will cause their demise. This is…

As a free-market proponent who isn't 100% sold on all of the democratic socialism stuff, I don't understand how anyone can deny that having your literal physical well-being tied to your employment is not an enormous problem for anyone who values the efficient allocation of labor/capital (which should hopefully be everyone?) It's literally just a cash-equivalent (in that nearly every employer is going to provide a pla…

Could you rephrase that first paragraph without the triple negative?

It sounds like you are saying that having your physical well-being tied to employment is good for efficient allocation of labor/capital, but I have some problems with this claim and I’d like to check that this is what you’re actually saying.

The economic problem is that having well-being tied to employment pushes people towards employment short-term rather than value long-term.

Then there’s the moral problems, which can’t be ignored.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#46

Post by undefined1 »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #21
perceptronas wrote: post #10

>After the 2008 recession, President Obama and the Democrats effectively saved capitalism from itself; a more radical leadership would fight to replace it with a better system. This time around there may be far more pressure from below to do just that, especially with a more organized left and more class conscious young people. As a former soviet occupied country citizen, I am amazed that westerners would want to ove…

“that westerners would want to overthrow capitalism.” Almost nobody wants to overthrow capitalism. People want to make adjustments to the current form of it to address concerns. That’s very legitimate and necessary in a functioning democracy. The people who scream “socialism “ all the time just want to move the discussion to extremes

The number of people embracing extremes has increased rapidly though (generally, and on both sides).

In regards to this, "Replace Capitalism" seems to be gaining ground faster than "Improve Capitalism".

43% of Americans say socialism would be a good thing for the country[1]

1. https://news.gallup.com/poll/257639/four-americans-embrace-f...

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#47

Post by Double_a_92 »

nohope wrote: post #22
perceptronas wrote: post #10

>After the 2008 recession, President Obama and the Democrats effectively saved capitalism from itself; a more radical leadership would fight to replace it with a better system. This time around there may be far more pressure from below to do just that, especially with a more organized left and more class conscious young people. As a former soviet occupied country citizen, I am amazed that westerners would want to ove…

What you mean by "west"? Latin America (where I live), all the Africa and some poor european countries are "west" and those are not very good examples of prosperity. Even in "western" rich countries there is a lot of growing unequality. The capitalism is falling by itself.

It's a relationship like this: All wealthy countries are capitalist. Some capitalist countries are wealthy.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#48

Post by wayoutthere »

goldstone26 wrote: post #33
toomuchtodo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would likely improve under democratic socialism (which is not the same model as communism or socialism). Especially if we disconnect healthcare from employment allowing workers more freedom to pick employers or entrepreneurship. People want purpose, but they also need their basic needs met. They have to have hope they won't spend their lives on an economic treadmill where one slip will cause their demise. This is…

As a free-market proponent who isn't 100% sold on all of the democratic socialism stuff, I don't understand how anyone can deny that having your literal physical well-being tied to your employment is not an enormous problem for anyone who values the efficient allocation of labor/capital (which should hopefully be everyone?) It's literally just a cash-equivalent (in that nearly every employer is going to provide a pla…

Because it benefits employers to have desperate employees. If your short-term survival is tied to your job, you'll be willing to take a lot more abuse (and less pay) in order to maintain your core needs.

You literally cannot have comfortable life for the majority of society under a free-market system because it relies on the threat of being outcast from safety. The most socialist era of this country (1930-1980) is widely regarded as the American "Golden Era". I don't think that's a coincidence.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#49

Post by isoskeles »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #25
perceptronas wrote: post #10

>After the 2008 recession, President Obama and the Democrats effectively saved capitalism from itself; a more radical leadership would fight to replace it with a better system. This time around there may be far more pressure from below to do just that, especially with a more organized left and more class conscious young people. As a former soviet occupied country citizen, I am amazed that westerners would want to ove…

>Its what makes the west so prosperous And destroy our habitat.

Interesting, capitalism seems orthogonal since China appears to do a good job of it too. I’d say it’s just industrialism or commercialism, which are not concerned with who owns capital.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#50

Post by ClumsyPilot »

The illusion that there is one thing called capitalism needs to go. Because of it, the discussion always goes to "oh, you think communism will be better? We will have gulags before the month is over!"

Most people are unaware there are like 9 different schools of thought in economics, which complement each other. They might have heard of Keynesian and neo-liberal. Of all places, HN readers should know about Schumpeter's model, as it explains the rise of new industries often comes with disruption to the old ones.

Many problems of the last decades come from shoe-horning neoliberal economic model where it does not belong, without understanding it's limitations. (which are numerous). Privatising natural monopolies is the classic example.

It also seems the fall of USSR has freed our leaders from any need for self-reflection. The consequences for fuck ups could be dire, now all you get is "occupy wall-street".

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