Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession • Hacker News Board

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#31

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

xienze wrote: post #15

wayoutthere wrote: post #8

In the US, it's less active protest and more things like slacking off heavily at work because it's a treadmill we can't win. We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. We as a nation have basically told people "no, you can't have a comfortable life or save for retirement because your parents' generation still needs to get 10% annual growth to make their retirement mat…

> We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. And you think that would improve under socialism or communism?

[deleted]

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#32

Post by xienze » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 2:29 PM UTC

isodude wrote: post #14

corporateslave5 wrote: post #6

[flagged]

Why is immigration tied to lower wages? Searching for it yields rather the opposite.

You're a) expanding the labor pool with b) people willing to work for less money than the locals. How you think that doesn't drive down wages is beyond me.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#33

Post by goldstone26 » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #17

xienze wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. And you think that would improve under socialism or communism?

It would likely improve under democratic socialism (which is not the same model as communism or socialism). Especially if we disconnect healthcare from employment allowing workers more freedom to pick employers or entrepreneurship. People want purpose, but they also need their basic needs met. They have to have hope they won't spend their lives on an economic treadmill where one slip will cause their demise. This is…

As a free-market proponent who isn't 100% sold on all of the democratic socialism stuff, I don't understand how anyone can deny that having your literal physical well-being tied to your employment is not an enormous problem for anyone who values the efficient allocation of labor/capital (which should hopefully be everyone?)

It's literally just a cash-equivalent (in that nearly every employer is going to provide a plan, and you'll need to pay for health coverage somehow, whether it be in taxes or in premiums) part of your compensation that is also coincidentally an enormous arbitrary sticking point that makes moving jobs that much more of a pain and danger. But only for the employee, of course.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#34

Post by wayoutthere » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

xienze wrote: post #15

wayoutthere wrote: post #8

In the US, it's less active protest and more things like slacking off heavily at work because it's a treadmill we can't win. We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. We as a nation have basically told people "no, you can't have a comfortable life or save for retirement because your parents' generation still needs to get 10% annual growth to make their retirement mat…

> We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. And you think that would improve under socialism or communism?

I didn't mention either? But capitalism definitely isn't working for a lot of us, so yeah, people are interested in other systems.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#35

Post by jahaja » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

perceptronas wrote: post #10

>After the 2008 recession, President Obama and the Democrats effectively saved capitalism from itself; a more radical leadership would fight to replace it with a better system. This time around there may be far more pressure from below to do just that, especially with a more organized left and more class conscious young people. As a former soviet occupied country citizen, I am amazed that westerners would want to ove…

My kingdom for a single thread criticizing Capitalism without a response like this. People looking for social justice do not want Stalinism. Why would they?

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#36

Post by Ididntdothis » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

nohope wrote: post #29

Ididntdothis wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“that westerners would want to overthrow capitalism.” Almost nobody wants to overthrow capitalism. People want to make adjustments to the current form of it to address concerns. That’s very legitimate and necessary in a functioning democracy. The people who scream “socialism “ all the time just want to move the discussion to extremes

> Almost nobody wants to overthrow capitalism. People want to make adjustments to the current form of it to address concerns. You are right, and that is exactly the problem, since it is something history proved impossible to be reformed. EDIT: reforming capitalism is a long term desire from part of the humankind. It is not a new idea and has yield very long discussions [1]. So, the big idea today is indeed how to ove…

Reforming capitalism has been done in many countries for a long time by adjusting policies. Has worked great . There is no way you can organize a society without making constant adjustments no matter what the ideology is.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#37

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

goldstone26 wrote: post #33

toomuchtodo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would likely improve under democratic socialism (which is not the same model as communism or socialism). Especially if we disconnect healthcare from employment allowing workers more freedom to pick employers or entrepreneurship. People want purpose, but they also need their basic needs met. They have to have hope they won't spend their lives on an economic treadmill where one slip will cause their demise. This is…

As a free-market proponent who isn't 100% sold on all of the democratic socialism stuff, I don't understand how anyone can deny that having your literal physical well-being tied to your employment is not an enormous problem for anyone who values the efficient allocation of labor/capital (which should hopefully be everyone?) It's literally just a cash-equivalent (in that nearly every employer is going to provide a pla…

[deleted]

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#38

Post by bsanr2 » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

npo9 wrote: post #3

I’m really surprised this piece was almost entirely about public opinion, only using economics to discuss the likelihood of a recession soon and the effects of inequality. The levers our governments have been pulling to steer the economy are reaching their maximum. The system where we reduce interest rates to spur spending to stimulate the economy (probably) don’t work when interest rates negative.

The problem is that you either incentivize higher economic volume or you get deflation. They tried printing money and giving it to the banks to loan because they're afraid to do the one rational thing there is and, in doing so, piss off the wealthy. But now that it seems that we're going to see instability and unrest no matter what, it's time to play that card, and hopefully shorten our inevitable economic Dark Age:

Wealth tax.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#39

Post by tempguy9999 » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

corporateslave5 wrote: post #6

[flagged]

> but one is an economic policy and a result of the other

I don't see that unfettered immigration need be linked to capitalism, just the belief people can move around freely being OK.

> increase competition and lower their wages (immigration), whilst railing against capitalism

I'd guess they are railing not against immigrants that undercut their £8/hour bar work but the executives at the top of companies that can earn millions, even many millions a year, while the yoof serve them drinks from the bar at £8/hour. Even more so when those executives prove incompetent or corrupt.

> Ideology has gone so far as to confuse young Americans

Well I'm a brit an not young but I guess their ideology is "I'd like to be treated with economic decency", which I support.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#40

Post by NeedMoreTea » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

perceptronas wrote: post #10

>After the 2008 recession, President Obama and the Democrats effectively saved capitalism from itself; a more radical leadership would fight to replace it with a better system. This time around there may be far more pressure from below to do just that, especially with a more organized left and more class conscious young people. As a former soviet occupied country citizen, I am amazed that westerners would want to ove…

When increasing numbers are getting a worse deal than their parents it's perhaps not surprising people look to alternatives. Doubt they will overthrow it - far more likely they will try and constrain it. Limits on inequality, environmental damage etc.

We could do worse than look to the periods of history when capitalism seemed to work far better, or to the more social democratic countries - e.g. the Nordic model.

I sincerely doubt there'll be a Western rerun of 1917.