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Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

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Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#301

After reading this thread, now I get why /r/financialindependence is so full of IT guys like me. We got so roasted during 2001, that we never ever again want to be dependent on our cosy well paying jobs we know not to take for granted. I think FIRE is mostly an insurance for us who has seen those dark days. Like 50% of the other swedes working in IT, I got kicked out of the trade for many years. Moved to China, had a…

How do you hedge an investment portfolio against a stock market crash, that sounds impossible ?

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#302
post #2

Got stuck with a huge tax bill on my stock options when Yahoo went under, took 10 years of brutal back to back contracts to pay it off. The state didn't care that I had nowhere near the opportunities again they just mercilessly hammered me for taxes until I paid it off a couple years ago but took nearly 15 years to pay off the tax debt and meanwhile I could invest in nothing else.

I've seen something similar to this in other responses in this thread, how exactly does one get a big tax bill for your stock options while simultaneously not being able to pay them off? I'm not understanding something about the situation.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was rumored that a friend had a $1.5million tax bill on options he had exercised. He apparently held onto his shares riding them down to about about $300K or so in value. Not sure how he resolved it (whether he negotiated his tax bill down with the IRS or came up with a payment plan).

Isn't this what bankruptcy is for?

Can't file for bankruptcy for taxes due. Nor legal liability (ex. Auto Accident liabilities)

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#304
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have done this when companies I worked at where having difficulties, I volunteered to wait for my pay and prioritise other colleagues who had less of a buffer (single parents for example) Did mean in one case I had to take the hit when the company collapsed and claim via RB2 (this is in the UK) - of course it turned out that my employer had not been making my NI payments so no unemployment benefit for me.

>I have done this when companies I worked at where having difficulties, I volunteered to wait for my pay and prioritise other colleagues who had less of a buffer (single parents for example) That's quite a brave move if you might end up never getting paid. Props

Well I would get the government safety net which pays out a proportion of wages id just have to wait a couple of months so I wasn't risking much a few hundred.

But when one of your co-workers is a single mum who lives in rented accommodation and is buying her electricity on a Pay As you go electricity key losing a months wages is more serious.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#305

Offered in the spirit of "don't believe everything you hear": I went into university and graduated during the post-bust winter. The few adults I knew, plus the Wall Street Journal, were unanimous in their opinion that engineering as a field was done in the United States and that all future hiring of software developers would happen in Asia. I got on a plane to Japan immediately after graduation. It's been a fun and f…

I remember being at Zellerbach Auditorium at UC Berkeley in 2001 or 2002. Bill Gates had come to urge students to please consider majoring in CS.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#306
I was working at a large firm (similar to HP), a the changes were gradual, but significant:

- Hubris blow-back: Non-managers with access to HR data within my own organization would query payroll data, and publicly say developers are overpaid. This was a US public firm, not a start-up, and our pay wasn't market leading.

- Domestic hiring froze. Existing offers were rescinded. No new offers made.

- Foreign hiring or visa workers started: The internet wasn't fast enough for outsourcing at first, so new developers were brought to the US Visa from India, getting paid quite a bit less, and living 5-6 guys to an apartment in the woods of New England.

- Terminations/layoffs: The first was a shock, then came the drain of twice a year, every year, eventually becoming the norm. At first, the less technically apt were release (those who learned to program because it was hiring.) Then some really good people, with good ideas and great degrees gone because they couldn't put in the hours or work in the environment, or because they couldn't set aside their pet project.

- Cost management, control, and reduction, everywhere. Need email? billed to your department. Need storage? billed by the MB. Need licensed software? Assemble a business case for a VP, and expect to have 4 tiers of reviews before that. Need a monitor or memory? Buy it yourself, that will never get approved. Have a shadow-IT lab where all your work gets done? Expect auditors to shut it down and claim the assets for the CIO. The correct department expense number is $0.

- Project control: strict waterfall, with systems engineering of everything. Regular metrics reporting with remediation plans to executives. This requires...

- Personnel tracking: hours worked per week were introduced, starting at 1900/year, then ratcheting up. 40 per week became 44, and then it was a whisper. Managers knew, plan your top people at 50-65/week or you would blow your budget. Those top-billers brought in revenue.

- Technical advancement evaporated. Development was for the outsourced teams; if you want to move up, learn how to manage lots of outsourced developers as a "project manager."

- Projects shifted. Latitude to explore new technologies and possibilities went away. Remaining client projects were purely driven by what was needed to keep businesses moving forward, like legal/regulatory requirements.

- Governance. To make sure there's consistency, and no shadow projects, control them through review boards for everything.

Consequences?

It became a grind. The long hours worked during the dot-com era exploring the possible and creating an internet that never existed before became long hours to meet project targets, billable targets, and client deadlines.....

Marriages suffered. People skipped family events for work. People skipped exams or even dropped out of advanced degrees, for work. You could see who was burned out, or was having trouble with depression, or was self medicating in other ways.

Professional lives suffered.

Not a good time.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#308

The current environment is nothing like the dot-com boom. The dot-com boom/bust was driven by public markets, whereas now the public markets are the ones who are filtering out the wild valuations now before it gets out of hand and throws the country into a recession like it did last time.

I suspect that a lot of people here would be surprised at how many people have never even heard of a lot of the tech (or "tech") companies that are so prominent in industry's awareness.

One example. I saw a stat a month or so ago that something like 63% of Americans had never taken an Uber. I'm sure the vast majority have never heard of WeWork.

Yes, some of these companies are now public. But this isn't a matter of a whole industry having a major downturn. It's mostly companies that are well-known in some circles but are pretty inconsequential in the scheme of things.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#309
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

occasional recessions are useful because they destroy bad ideas (not exclusively bad ideas, but many bad ideas) and therefore free up resources for new ideas. Some of which will be good, some bad. I feel this was absolutely true for the world of internet applications. The stuff built in the early dot-com era was typically garbage from a technical standpoint. Heaps and heaps and heaps of spaghetti code written in PHP,…

Dunno. Practices in 1997 and 2002 didn't differ in very appreciable degree, just that piles of crap C++ became piles of crap Java. AJAX was made possible not by Google but by Microsoft's XHR and IE5. RSS never took of in any appreciable commercial way… I would say the bust had no substantial impact on technology side of thing. Perhaps the pricing became bit more modest, and sure, lots of careers were "filtered out".

>I would say the bust had no substantial impact on technology side of thing.

I think that it did, because it focused development efforts of companies that remained in business. Many failed dot-coms should have failed before the bust, but they kept acting like working businesses as long as they had capital available. They diluted markets, absorbed development talent by offering equity and large salaries, and in general distorted the whole industry.

After the bust, the technologies and idea that got attention/effort/built up were the ones with a solid foundation, not the pipe dreams.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#310
One day it was all froth and then all of a sudden there was no work. I was lucky enough to have had enough money in the back to be able to spend the following two years studying, travelling and working on open-source software, and actually had a really good time that I look back on fondly, but I knew many people who had to switch from a very lucrative job at a startup to waiting tables and such.

Lesson: if you're making good money now, save (and if you then find yourself with nothing to do which pays, try to make the best of that time by doing interesting things that you would normally not have the time to do).

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