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Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

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Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#21
We launched right at the beginning of the end, although we didn’t know it at the time.

Everyone thought they were making tons of money, based on valuations that were only on paper. Kind of like losing $5B and still thinking it’s a valuable company.

I first noticed problems when we repeatedly had potential client me be dark when we showed up for meetings. They were just gone, and no one bothered to Let you know. They had other things to worry about.

We didn’t get to the point where we could exercise options, but some people were badly burned at time time. If you exercised a million dollars worth of options and hold them past the end of they year, you owed taxes. If the shares were now worth zero, you still owed the taxes. This bit the rank and file, who thought they were getting rich, and ended up poorer than before. (IIRC you could carry forward the loss, but that’s no good if that was the only stock you ever got)

We got bought, and had dead end jobs for a while, before they laid us off. Was not too hard to find a job again.

I recommend reading about tulip mania. It’s amazing how similar that was.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#22
I was living in Florida, working for a Boston-based WebDev/ISP consultancy. Smart people, high-flying projects, free snacks, nerf shenanigans, constant hiring, with bonuses for you-name-it. I'd recently gotten a nice bonus for bringing on my good friend as the office's systems administrator.

Business slowed, clients missed payments, people started watching f*d.com, the first round of layoffs came, the execs did a tour and promised all was ok, the second round of layoffs came. We spend a lot of time at Starbucks contemplating plan B.

One day I came in and the laptop wouldn't connect to the network. I stick my head in my friend's office, and say "My laptop won't connect, is there something I should know?" He gets that deer in the headlights look, rushes off to check with the management, and a meeting is convened where the third layoff happens, something I'm part of and he's not (Probable cause for me being out: I didn't play ball on a traveling assignment I didn't want, was OK with the outcome. My friend hung on to the bitter end, and we laugh about it now.) The hardest day was sending back the extra paycheck the company had accidentally sent.

I started looking for jobs, but I started getting calls from friends who heard I was available for a week here, a month there, a six-month thing, etc, etc. I wound up forming an LLC and staying self-employed until decided I needed a nice safe job just before the financial crisis.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#23
post #2

Got stuck with a huge tax bill on my stock options when Yahoo went under, took 10 years of brutal back to back contracts to pay it off. The state didn't care that I had nowhere near the opportunities again they just mercilessly hammered me for taxes until I paid it off a couple years ago but took nearly 15 years to pay off the tax debt and meanwhile I could invest in nothing else.

That is awful. If you had more money could you have fought it? Was prison threatened?

The IRS at least for now doesn't throw people in jail because they can't pay. There aren't enough jails and being in jail negatively impacts ability to pay.

Sometimes if the amount is ridiculously out sized compared with ability to pay the IRS will settle for a lower amount.

Notable if the IRS ever filed a lien against you: IRS Form 12277 Application for Withdrawal of Filed Form 668.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#24
post #2

Got stuck with a huge tax bill on my stock options when Yahoo went under, took 10 years of brutal back to back contracts to pay it off. The state didn't care that I had nowhere near the opportunities again they just mercilessly hammered me for taxes until I paid it off a couple years ago but took nearly 15 years to pay off the tax debt and meanwhile I could invest in nothing else.

That happened because you exercised and didn't sell?

Also, we may be hearing many stories like that after the Bitcoin bubble when IRS goes through the records more carefully. Always remember to take profits the instant you make those profits, put some of that cash aside for yours and IRS's sake. Always.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#25
There weren't a lot of jobs.

I was at one place through much of the boom, eventually they folded. I was the last employee, part of my job was winding down and archiving the assets. After that, jobs were a bit scarce.

I didn't mind the break, though it was a bit demoralizing. Much like today, if you can create a name for yourself, it's easier to get hired.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#26
It was a rough point in time. In the dot com boom, people who could rub two lines of visual basic (for applications) were getting jobs. If you did not like your job, you could make a phone call and have a few offers waiting for you by the end of the day. Glorious stock options at promising startups after fleecing larger companies in panics about y2k and missing the boom. The parties and travel...

We were joking about the pets.com of the world - buying pet food, selling it at a loss, and trying to make up for it in volume. At least we had a business model that made money, a foosball table, and actual personal offices for each developer. When the stock market tanked... everything just shut down. People stopped buying or investing - and anything that assumed growth, for the most part, died. Starbucks with long, long queue lanes were empty.

As some companies died, there were opportunistic shops that were looking for solid talent. As they sold off our little shop of ten people, I ended up getting an offer and then being one of the folks left behind to turn the server room lights off. I had negotiated a start date a few months into the future, and very thankfully, they honored the offer. Things got worse. There were several more bits of belt tightening - we had a 25% round of layoffs later as the impacts of a bad economy really hit home. I did well/got lucky - but while the first round cleared out a lot of 'charlatans', I saw many solid people go on that black Friday

Salaries dropped - or at least stopped growing for most senior people. The rise of off-shore came and the realities of global economies eventually settled in. Large swaths of people turned their back on development... and here we are today, where it can be tricky to find solid folks again. The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#27

9/11 truly tanked the economy. Business stopped for a month after that terrible day and it took years to recover. Seeing friends lose their jobs never get easy no matter how many times you say your goodbyes.

9/11 happened in the middle of the recession. It wasn't the cause.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#28
I graduated from college right amidst the bubble bursting, and it was brutal. Fresh college grads and junior developers were competing with displaced veterans for entry-level positions. ~1 year prior I had been offered $120k/yr to drop out of school and move to Pittsburgh to take a job. I decided to stay in school to finish my degree instead, and by the time I did the bottom of the market had fallen out and I was unemployed for 7 months and finally landed my first professional software development job in Washington State for less than half the salary of the job I'd previously declined.

I thankfully had my CAD/CAM background & contracting to fallback on while hunting for those 7 months, but it was enormously demotivating & disenfranchising. I was within a couple weeks of just abandoning a career in software entirely and going back to what I knew permanently.

I expect it all worked out in the end, as I'm now CEO of a startup doing a thing I'm really interested in and have successfully raised money to fund it along side our early revenue. But, it was still immensely crappy at the time and shocking to see just how extreme the pendulum can swing in terms of available jobs, pay scales, etc.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#29
I went from being a hotshot who had multiple offers all the time with sign up bonuses to somebody who could send out 100 resumes and not get a single response and once I got a response I was offered much less than I was used to. It was very depressing but also educational. It took me quite a while (probably too long) to accept this new reality. I feel the same may happen to a lot of Startup guys who make big money in their 20s now.

Not all success is your own making. Often you are just riding a wave that takes you up but will also take you down if you are not careful.

Re: Ask HN: How was life for a regular dev during the dot com burst?

#30
I guess I was an 'average dev' at that time. I was developing applications for a company that sold software to banks. Around 2000 I was into client/server computing, working with VB, C++ and Tuxedo for a transaction monitor.

I never really felt the bubble burst. Maybe raises were slower for a while, but I don't remember it. Mostly a non-event.

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