To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#361

Post by blablabla123 » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 7:45 PM UTC

nscalf wrote: post #322

stared wrote: post #7

As an Aspie/ADD, I have never passed any formal interview, even for an intern position (sic!). (You can compare and contrast it with my GitHub/Resume/blog to make a judgment.) Fortunately, many times (even for mid-size companies or research institutes) the hiring was less formal. For small startups, where it is informal, I didn't feel at a disadvantage. For big, I don't believe I can pass through the first filter. It…

Just so I'm getting this straight, in a setting where your entire goal is to make a company want to work with you every day, it's discrimination to turn you down because you did not make them want to work with you? Listen, companies have their own cultures, and if you're not a fit to that culture, bringing you on runs the risk of ruining the culture they have been building and making their employees quit. I turn down…

>Listen, companies have their own cultures, and if you're not a fit to that culture, bringing you on runs the risk of ruining the culture they have been building and making their employees quit.

"Culture" has been deemed the #1 important in hiring in the startup culture in the last 5 or probably 10 years. Even large old-school companies seem to go for this. The reality is this: just open Glassdoor, a newspaper or talk to people directly and there are always people who can tell you how bad a place is. And if it's not that, then people might be in complete denial, wondering why things don't work, why the company is not able to reach any business or technical goals.

The reality is that most workplaces are pretty bad places to be, that's probably also why so many found their own companies or just freelance. That said, places with strong cultures seem really attractive to new employees but the places with the weakest (=non-existing) cultures are usually those where employees get most opportunity to develop and stay the longest.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#362

Post by PeterStuer » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

cr0sh wrote: post #327

matwood wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's just a shorthand way to criticize companies that turn people down for whatever reason. As I mentioned in another comment, a shop does not have to be a brogrammer shop for someone to fail the culture fit test. To your point, there may be brogrammer only shops out there, but I've never seen one. And, as someone who has always played sports, power lifted, and now trains BJJ, I wouldn't want to work for a no…

> I've wondered before if I didn't fit a culture because I'm not the stereotypical software person. Note the following isn't directed toward you specifically, but because you mentioned that you think you're not the "stereotypical software person" I wanted to write why I think that it is more likely - today - that you are...I think part of what we're seeing is the software development "culture" filtering out into "reg…

"Home" computers in those days used to be creation devices by default for nerds. To turn them into something that provided consumer entertainment took real work and in-depth knowledge.

Personal computers today are entertainment consumption devices for the masses. You can still use most for creating, but only a tiny, tiny fraction will ever go there.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#363

Post by kempbellt » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

pluma wrote: post #273

finnthehuman wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A "play fight" or a round of Rocket League may not result in physical injury but it's still an aggressive display of dominance rather than a cooperative exchange. Spoken like someone who was taught a “lens” to read everything in the world. We can just as easily invent the opposite meaning: that they were both insecure about looking bad at their job, and punted on the question of which design is better and settled th…

I'm a man. I explicitly said this is not about men vs women but about performative masculinity. That said, did it even occur to you that suggesting a dispute between two grown adult men should best be solved with wrestling or a competitive round of video games is in itself infantilising? This doesn't resolve the dispute, it just uses a feat of strength to establish literally unquestioned dominance (even if that domin…

>Resolving a dispute involves, y'know, actually talking and understanding each other's point of view. But that requires empathy.

History would disagree, and then hit you with a stick until you agree with its disagreement.

Resolving a reasonable dispute (aka, a debate) can be done via talking it out, but this requires both parties to agree upon the rules for "winning" this dispute. Typically, in regards to physical confrontation, resolving a logical disagreement isn't the goal. It's about imbalance of respect.

Two people wrestling things out in an agreed upon match, builds camaraderie. You learn to trust one another, and how to defend yourself at the same time. Which can be extremely beneficial for people working together on a team.

Also, take note. Nothing I said included terms like "man", "masculinity", or being an "adult". There's no need conflate these terms with this type of action. Women, and children, also exhibit these social mechanisms.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#364

Post by matwood » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 8:22 PM UTC

cr0sh wrote: post #327

matwood wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's just a shorthand way to criticize companies that turn people down for whatever reason. As I mentioned in another comment, a shop does not have to be a brogrammer shop for someone to fail the culture fit test. To your point, there may be brogrammer only shops out there, but I've never seen one. And, as someone who has always played sports, power lifted, and now trains BJJ, I wouldn't want to work for a no…

> I've wondered before if I didn't fit a culture because I'm not the stereotypical software person. Note the following isn't directed toward you specifically, but because you mentioned that you think you're not the "stereotypical software person" I wanted to write why I think that it is more likely - today - that you are...I think part of what we're seeing is the software development "culture" filtering out into "reg…

Sounds like we're about the same age. I did #2 and #3 and was science inclined, etc... But, I also did sports and was outdoorsy. A single TV in my house meant no computer time if my dad was home, so I had to do other things.

I started undergrad as pre-med, and programming was just a fun hobby. I remember one night while studying for some insane biology test from an equally insane teacher that while I was interested in being a doctor, I loved programming/computers/technology. I pushed through that semester and switched majors.

Even today, I feel not nerdy enough in some situations though my wife would disagree (she thinks I'm very nerdy).

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#365

Post by Grustaf » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:01 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #266

Grustaf wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the point is that companies shouldn't be frat houses full of brogrammers. Don’t you think that this should be up to the founders to decide? I would personally much prefer a frat house atmosphere than the more common geeky introvert culture that most technology companies have, but I would not like there to be laws about it.

No, I don't think it should be. Companies are afforded protections and benefits under the law. They owe society something in return for that. One of the things I think they owe is a responsibility to act in certain ways with respect to the general public, which includes their own employees.

Of course companies have obligations to society but why the particular obligation not to have a loud, boisterous atmosphere? Why should they then be allowed to have geeky introvert cultures? That also alienates a lot of people, including probably a lot of women.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#366

Post by jasode » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:02 PM UTC

wysifnwyg wrote: post #354

jasode wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Good hiring managers will recognize that everyone doesn't have to like everyone. [...] as a drinking buddy, In every thread where people go through great pains trying to clearly articulate why creating a cordial, amiable, and friendly work environment is important, people don't read that with charity. Instead, it's always twisted into "drinking buddy" . Let me try some different examples as models. Penn & Teller mag…

Given their history, I would say they aren't friendly and/or cordial. I'd say they're professional.

>Given their history, I would say they aren't friendly and/or cordial.

There are various interviews with them throughout the years and they are quite genuinely friendly with each other. However, they have different personalities and they are not drinking buddies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv_Xkz9zepI&t=21m0s

They said their enduring relationship is based on professional respect instead of socializing.

Regardless, I still don't understand why not hiring "rude people" who you feel may disrupt the workplace is "discrimination". There is no special protected class of discrimination against unpleasant rude people! It also works both ways: if the candidate determines that the hiring manager and/or coworkers interviewing them is rude, they have a right to reject the company. There is no ethical standard to tolerate rude people from either side.

Again, to emphasize, the gp was talking about rude people; not black people nor women, etc. So the sibling comment twisting the gp's comment into racism and misogyny is putting words into his mouth he never said and degrading the HN discussion.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#367

Post by Grustaf » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:04 PM UTC

gridlockd wrote: post #279

sidlls wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think it should be. Companies are afforded protections and benefits under the law. They owe society something in return for that. One of the things I think they owe is a responsibility to act in certain ways with respect to the general public, which includes their own employees.

> Companies are afforded protections and benefits under the law. They owe society something in return for that. I don't like this way of thinking. Individuals are also afforded unsolicited "protections and benefits". Therefore, individuals owe society? That's basically like the Mafia offering you protection, at a price.

Of course you owe something to society. Without it you would probably be sleeping naked under a tree in the forest. The system depends on people contributing back.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#368

Post by Grustaf » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:11 PM UTC

romwell wrote: post #316

Grustaf wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard that lone wolf vs terrorist meme so many times, are there actually any studies on this, or even examples? I’m also not sure if being a “mentally ill” mass murderer is much better than a “terrorist” mass murderer.

If you are not sure, consider the same notions without mass murder attached to them. They are socially (and legally) in different leagues. >are there actually any studies on this, or even examples? Yes, there specifically are[1][2][3][4][...]. I'd suggest [1] as a start, and then Google is your friend. [1] https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/when-do-peo... [2] https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-48477-00…

Thanks for the links, I’ll have a look.

If you remove the “murder” part from terrorist you basically just have a disgruntled crackpot, but one with political motivations.

I know that I’d rather be a theoretical, non violent terrorist than just mentally ill.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#369

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

otakucode wrote: post #331

asdf21 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's socially acceptable to hate / slander fraternity members (see the rolling stone rape case,) but it's not socially acceptable to hate hipsters, only to casually poke fun at them.

Just an observation, frat houses do focus very heavily on mob mentality, while hipsters are just a trend group. No one is going to get lectured by their fellow hipsters about being insufficiently loyal to the hipster brotherhood. Hipsters don't organize and intentionally seek to forge mob mentality and loyalty obsession. That is a significant difference just considering human psychology.

[deleted]

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#370

Post by wysifnwyg » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:15 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #366

wysifnwyg wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given their history, I would say they aren't friendly and/or cordial. I'd say they're professional.

>Given their history, I would say they aren't friendly and/or cordial. There are various interviews with them throughout the years and they are quite genuinely friendly with each other. However, they have different personalities and they are not drinking buddies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv_Xkz9zepI&t=21m0s They said their enduring relationship is based on professional respect instead of socializing. Regardles…

Are disabilities not a protected class?