To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#331

Post by otakucode » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

asdf21 wrote: post #303

caseysoftware wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's a meme. It's a quick and easy way to dismiss a of predominantly/exclusively white male team in a way that will get most people to say "Ugh, yuck!" without having any substantive criticism. After 10 years hopping between Austin and San Francisco, hipsters with impressive beards and flannel seem at least 100x more common than brogrammers.

It's socially acceptable to hate / slander fraternity members (see the rolling stone rape case,) but it's not socially acceptable to hate hipsters, only to casually poke fun at them.

Just an observation, frat houses do focus very heavily on mob mentality, while hipsters are just a trend group. No one is going to get lectured by their fellow hipsters about being insufficiently loyal to the hipster brotherhood. Hipsters don't organize and intentionally seek to forge mob mentality and loyalty obsession. That is a significant difference just considering human psychology.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#332

Post by anoncake » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

nscalf wrote: post #322

stared wrote: post #7

As an Aspie/ADD, I have never passed any formal interview, even for an intern position (sic!). (You can compare and contrast it with my GitHub/Resume/blog to make a judgment.) Fortunately, many times (even for mid-size companies or research institutes) the hiring was less formal. For small startups, where it is informal, I didn't feel at a disadvantage. For big, I don't believe I can pass through the first filter. It…

Just so I'm getting this straight, in a setting where your entire goal is to make a company want to work with you every day, it's discrimination to turn you down because you did not make them want to work with you? Listen, companies have their own cultures, and if you're not a fit to that culture, bringing you on runs the risk of ruining the culture they have been building and making their employees quit. I turn down…

> I haven't regretted it once

Did you know that the problem with discrimination is not that the person doing the discriminating may suffer? Your experiences are quite irrelevant here.

> Just so I'm getting this straight, in a setting where your entire goal is to make a company want to work with you every day, it's discrimination to turn you down because you did not make them want to work with you? Listen, companies have their own cultures, and if you're not a fit to that culture, bringing you on runs the risk of ruining the culture they have been building and making their employees quit. I turn down every single person who acts in a way that convinces me I do not want to deal with them day in and day out, and I haven't regretted it once. Sure, we probably miss some good people, but we have a specific culture in place that we all enjoy, and I don't want to feel uncomfortable or have to walk on egg shells around my team.

I'm sorry that women and blacks make you uncomfortable but they have rights too. You don't mind jumping to conclusions, don't you?

> You may just be rude in an interview,

No, you clearly don't.

> To blame the interviewer for your behavior, whatever the reason, is outrageous.

They didn't, they blamed the interviewer for the discrimination.

> I think interviews aren't the best way to find out if someone is a going to be a good engineer,

Not everyone thinks so, causing systemic discrimination against those bad at selling themselves.

> but to be a good team member, you have to have good interactions with the team.

During interview situations? I don't think so.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#333

Post by TheOperator » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

stared wrote: post #7

As an Aspie/ADD, I have never passed any formal interview, even for an intern position (sic!). (You can compare and contrast it with my GitHub/Resume/blog to make a judgment.) Fortunately, many times (even for mid-size companies or research institutes) the hiring was less formal. For small startups, where it is informal, I didn't feel at a disadvantage. For big, I don't believe I can pass through the first filter. It…

>I've heard it so many times about people interviewing others, as "(s)he is smart, passed all test, but weird, I don't like to work with her/him".

I never really understood the point of affirmative action until I was told point blank repeatedly that my co-workers thought I was good at the work, but didn't like me because of what I couldn't do, and that getting hired & staying hired is about having co-workers like you.

I've tolerated hostile workplace environments, abuse, discrimination, disclosure of medical information, and such just to cling onto a job because I couldn't prove most of it. I didn't think I could just leave the situation and get another job so I didn't want to make any enemies. Honestly one of the main things I have going for me career-wise is that this has happened so much people feel bad for me and pull strings for me.

Discrimination is so easy. Just say somebody was a bad culture-fit. If anybody is different: disabled, poor, old, wrong ethnicity, wrong gender, ESL, then they obviously don't "fit in".

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#334

Post by cheald » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 5:49 PM UTC

dawg- wrote: post #264

This brings up the same core issue as all official diversity initiatives: as soon as you talk about it, you destroy it. When you make diversity a focus and celebrate yourself for being diverse, then the spirit of diversity is ruined. It's like something out of a zen koan. A truly diverse organization would not need to put out press releases and build its brand on being diverse, nor would they need to start official i…

Goodhart's law: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure."

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#335

Post by AdmiralAsshat » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 5:49 PM UTC

repomies691 wrote: post #173

dominicr wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that companies shouldn't be frat houses full of brogrammers. If you want to hang out with your friends and wrestle to decide coding patterns, then that's all well and good. But the second that it becomes a company that employs people it should be more mature, equal and accepting. Work is indeed not always only about output and skills, it's also about respecting each other and collaborating with d…

> I think the point is that companies shouldn't be frat houses full of brogrammers. Usually the founders/owners decide what a company is. Often it seems to me that there are plenty of other motivations to run a company. The founders hire people who they like to hang out with, maybe same hobbies etc. However I personally have never came across a company that could be described as a "frat house" or even which would hav…

>However I personally have never came across a company that could be described as a "frat house" or even which would have that kind of hiring policy.

Here's a recent example, if you need one:

https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-game...

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#336

Post by otakucode » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 5:57 PM UTC

romwell wrote: post #114

Leherenn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit". You describe it yourself as a frat house, which, I assume from the rest of your post, is not what you want. Work is not always only about output and skills, especially in a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues. It says nothing about your skills, just that both sides would probably be miserable in case you were hired…

>I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit" You should understand that what you wrote sounds like discrimination by age (and sex, "frat" means male), which is illegal - and for good reasons. EDIT: specifically, the only way a 35-year-old is not a "culture fit" in "a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues" is if that company is discriminating by age. I don't hav…

Legally speaking, age discrimination can not exist if you are under 40. There is zero protection with respect to age discrimination prior to 40 years of age, and the younger you get, the more enthusiastically age discrimination is accepted. Get under 18 and discrimination based on age is fully supported and actively encouraged.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#337

Post by nscalf » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 5:58 PM UTC

wysifnwyg wrote: post #330

nscalf wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so I'm getting this straight, in a setting where your entire goal is to make a company want to work with you every day, it's discrimination to turn you down because you did not make them want to work with you? Listen, companies have their own cultures, and if you're not a fit to that culture, bringing you on runs the risk of ruining the culture they have been building and making their employees quit. I turn down…

Good hiring managers will recognize that everyone doesn't have to like everyone. Work isn't a social club, it's a business in the market of delivering products. If candidates aren't measured on a metric of their capability to deliver and instead is measured on their metric as a drinking buddy, your company needs better managers.

Work actually is a social club. You don't need to love everyone, but you shouldn't feel uncomfortable. If you're unhappy at work, your work will suffer. If you're excited about what you're doing and you have your team's back, then you will deliver more value. Excellent engineers can be a good find, but teams build excellent things. There is a reason everyone doesn't work in isolation.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#338

Post by meristem » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 5:59 PM UTC

Would love to hear about their compensation and benefit packages and how they compare to industry- and NY-averages.

(Is the competitive edge of neurodiversity being properly carried through to living wages, benefits for people who aren’t full time, promotion processes that support differences etc)

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#339

Post by hwbehrens » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

wysifnwyg wrote: post #330

nscalf wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so I'm getting this straight, in a setting where your entire goal is to make a company want to work with you every day, it's discrimination to turn you down because you did not make them want to work with you? Listen, companies have their own cultures, and if you're not a fit to that culture, bringing you on runs the risk of ruining the culture they have been building and making their employees quit. I turn down…

Good hiring managers will recognize that everyone doesn't have to like everyone. Work isn't a social club, it's a business in the market of delivering products. If candidates aren't measured on a metric of their capability to deliver and instead is measured on their metric as a drinking buddy, your company needs better managers.

I think this is an over-simplistic view.

Of course work isn't a social club, but it (usually) is a team environment, which means working closely with others to achieve a goal. And if a candidate can't avoid offending one person for one hour (with a strong incentive to do so!), it's a sign that they probably aren't going to be able to work as effectively in that team environment as someone who exhibits at least a baseline of social skills.

In a working environment where each developer can be siloed away to work on an individual module/task, document it, and toss it over the wall, then I'd agree it probably would make sense to go strictly off the performance numbers. But that doesn't look like any working environment that I've encountered (yet).

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#340

Post by oarabbus_ » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 6:03 PM UTC

wysifnwyg wrote: post #330

nscalf wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so I'm getting this straight, in a setting where your entire goal is to make a company want to work with you every day, it's discrimination to turn you down because you did not make them want to work with you? Listen, companies have their own cultures, and if you're not a fit to that culture, bringing you on runs the risk of ruining the culture they have been building and making their employees quit. I turn down…

Good hiring managers will recognize that everyone doesn't have to like everyone. Work isn't a social club, it's a business in the market of delivering products. If candidates aren't measured on a metric of their capability to deliver and instead is measured on their metric as a drinking buddy, your company needs better managers.

I'm not sure if you're intentionally misrepresenting his argument but he is saying he doesn't want to walk on eggshells around coworkers, not that he wants to like them enough to grab a beer with them.