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The most successful people are just the luckiest, a new computer model confirms

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Re: The most successful people are just the luckiest, a new computer model confirms

#201
post #7

Rich people got "lucky" but they don't define what luck is to begin with. To quote Naval, there are 4 kinds of luck. 1. Blind luck - Where I just got lucky because something completely out of my control happened 2. Luck from hustling - luck that comes through persistence, hard work, hustle, motion. Which is when you’re running around creating lots of opportunities, you’re generating a lot of energy, you’re doing a lo…

2-4 are great examples of survivorship bias. For every success story with those traits are thousands of failures. If Bill Gates had been born and raised in Ruanda, you wouldn't know his name today. Same IQ, same hustler. But no parents with connections, no upbringing devoid of war and violence. It's just like in sports. Usain Bolt is not the fastest man alive. He is the fastest professional runner. Within a sample se…

> This is why the slogan "Billionaires should not exist" is not without merit. A net worth of 100mil still means generational wealth. But once you're in the billions, the gap to all the other employees in your company becomes just crazy - but none of the billions would have been possible without their labor.

On the other hand, suppose you employ 30,000 people each with 10,000 in savings from working at your company. Without your initial labor to get everything set up and get the business going, none of their combined $300 million in assets would have been possible without your labor, so actually your net worth seems ever more justified.

Re: The most successful people are just the luckiest, a new computer model confirms

#202
I was just telling a friend how much I hated this article. So many flaws, of assumptions, reasoning and ethics.

1. The article assumes that IQ is "normally distributed" and that there are no extreme outliers, but how true is this really? First of all, IQ is a constructed metric that consists of multiple dimensions, and is normalized to mean 100, std 15. That's means it will be approximately normal, but not actually. In particular, AFAIK IQ tests can't reliably distinguish between extremely high IQ scores (140+). So we don't really have reliable data about the tail of the distribution... what we do have is strong anecdotal evidence that some people are extreme outliers (in either intelligence or performance) (Ramanujan, Elon Musk, John von Neumann, Steve Jobs). We also know from other examples that extreme outliers are possible, even though they're rare - example is breeding (of plants like corn or animals like chicken [1]), where just (unnatural) selection can produce phenotypes (from combinations of existing genes) that are multiple standard deviations above the original average.

2. Ok, so we have a model that produces some result. Does that make it a good model? Not necessarily! The point of Central Limit Theorem is that all models (within certain constraints) produce the same outcome.

Have we tried any alternative models? Basically their model is, Success = payoff * (a * luck + b * talent) and they argue that a is much bigger than b. But what if a was 0? In the present world, with companies like Google, Facebook, Amazon - i.e. a "winner-takes-all" scenario - I'd argue that even if success was completely skill-based, as long as the winners get outsized gains, you'd still expect 80-20 (or worse) wealth distribution.

3. Can we improve on it? Does it really make sense for the society to allocate resources / rewards equally to everyone? Maybe in academia (I'm not too familiar with that area), but in general, I'd argue not. The problem is, what means equally? Ok, so we had Fleming who discovered penicillin by chance. So, we should equally reward him, as well as the 9 other researchers that were also doing research in X and could have also stumbled upon the same substance, but were unlucky and didn't. But the bigger picture here is that we discovered antibiotics. I'm sure there were uncountable other lines of research that didn't yield any useful products or results or discoveries! (I've no experience with research, but I've read on Gwern that math discoveries are distributed with geometric (memoryless) distribution, i.e. more time spent on it does not increase your chances of solving it... that parallels my experience with math competitions, where you can be the smartestest of all but if you're approaching the problem along the wrong direction, there's no way for you to reach the goal.) Also, "same reward for same effort" sounds like a metric that can be very easily gamed.

So, in general, while I'd argue for more meritocracy and more equal rewards for producing results (i.e. inventors / workers get more money, not just investors / owners), I'm fairly biased against rewarding mere effort, and this article (X) definitely doesn't tilt my bias otherwise.

[1] https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2014/10/big-chickens.html

(X) I think it's definitely possible that the article is much worse than the study, and that the study actually addresses all of my concerns... Journalism is mostly sensationalism these days, especially science journalism.

Re: The most successful people are just the luckiest, a new computer model confirms

#203
How many statisticians, psychologists, etc. does it take to re-create Ecclesiastes?

"I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."

Re: The most successful people are just the luckiest, a new computer model confirms

#204
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re looking at it way to black and white. I would bet if Gates had been born in Rwanda, he would have stood a good chance of being successful there, better than average.

Libertarians who talk about how the state just gets in the way of innovators like Gates forget how hard it is to start a business when the central government fails and people start hacking away at each other with machetes instead of programming computers.

Okay, but this is a strawman, because a basic tenet of libertarianism is that a government is necessary to forcefully (if necessary) prevent others from trampling on your individual rights. You are describing anarchy, not libertarianism.

Re: The most successful people are just the luckiest, a new computer model confirms

#205
post #34
post #7

Rich people got "lucky" but they don't define what luck is to begin with. To quote Naval, there are 4 kinds of luck. 1. Blind luck - Where I just got lucky because something completely out of my control happened 2. Luck from hustling - luck that comes through persistence, hard work, hustle, motion. Which is when you’re running around creating lots of opportunities, you’re generating a lot of energy, you’re doing a lo…

My guess is that it's some kind of distribution curve. You can certainly improve your odds via 2, 3 and 4, but some people will do all those and end up not doing well. The average person who does them all will end up a bit better-off than average, and some will end up very well off. In other words, they help, but don't guarantee 'success'.

Will they? Wouldn't you need to not only do them, but do them better than average? So it's not just that you need to work hard, it's that you need to be working harder than average. But also if someone was already ahead of you, they could work less than that and still wind up ahead of you.

So now, is it the hard work that determined the end result, or just the luck again?

There are tons of people right now trying really hard to do all sorts of things. Many of them will fail, for a myriad of reasons. That's the idea of "luck". You can't know which reasons will lead to your downfall, because reducing labor and life to "hard work" is so absurdly reductive it's meaningless.

Basically, your individual circumstances are your own and comparing yourself to others might be helpful but it also might not and nobody can definitively tell you one way or the other if luck is even real.

Re: The most successful people are just the luckiest, a new computer model confirms

#206
post #46
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't choose your genes I agree with this one. > or where you are born Not really agree with this, you can change the country you live in. And it's more important where you live not where you are born. For example lots of people from poor countries go to US or Europe and are quite successful there. > 2,3 can be reduced to 1. Don't agree either. Let's be realistic, what are the chances of success for a person wh…

Changing the country you live in is not possible for most people - it requires luck to have the resources necessary to do so. And even if you do change the country you live in, it won’t be equivalent to having been born there.

100% true. No idea why you were downvoted.

Re: The most successful people are just the luckiest, a new computer model confirms

#207
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarians who talk about how the state just gets in the way of innovators like Gates forget how hard it is to start a business when the central government fails and people start hacking away at each other with machetes instead of programming computers.

Okay, but this is a strawman, because a basic tenet of libertarianism is that a government is necessary to forcefully (if necessary) prevent others from trampling on your individual rights. You are describing anarchy, not libertarianism.

I have in fact read from libertarians that the government has no business doing such a thing and that's the rightful place of private militias and police to enforce.

Re: The most successful people are just the luckiest, a new computer model confirms

#208
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That comment says "class of games", and you've started writing about "class games" and then "class differences" in your interpretation of the comment. Not saying you did something bad here, but it sounds more like the telephone game than discussing what was written, all because of the omission of the preposition "of."

This is correct. I mean that having a certain level of wealth throws you into a world where everyone wants a piece of you, friendships become very difficult because are they friends or are they just after some money? Probably the latter. It basically takes you out of the normal run of human affairs into a very isolated environment. It solves a lot of problems that, frankly, I can solve well enough now, in return for…

having a certain level of wealth throws you into a world where everyone wants a piece of you, friendships become very difficult because are they friends or are they just after some money?

I've never been rich. Most so-called "friends" have wanted something from me while having little or nothing to offer me in return.

This became crystal clear while I was homeless for years. People continued to want something for me, continued to act like I deserved nothing in return and used my poverty as justification for why the things they wanted from me "weren't worth anything" and shouldn't lead to money.

Wealth just makes it apparent you can't trust people. People tend to be assholes. It's not like poor people are all surrounded by wonderful, loving, caring friends who would go to the ends of the Earth for them.

Re: The most successful people are just the luckiest, a new computer model confirms

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great point. It's not (necessarily) that Americans are just inherently money-hungry; we just have to be because we live in a system that is really callous and unmerciful compared to other places in the world.

> that is really callous and unmerciful compared to other places in the world like Europe, which has a level of public spending that many view as unsustainably high? Edit: plenty of economists are saying this! It's hardly a controversial view

They seem to have sustained this far.

Re: The most successful people are just the luckiest, a new computer model confirms

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great point. It's not (necessarily) that Americans are just inherently money-hungry; we just have to be because we live in a system that is really callous and unmerciful compared to other places in the world.

> that is really callous and unmerciful compared to other places in the world like Europe, which has a level of public spending that many view as unsustainably high? Edit: plenty of economists are saying this! It's hardly a controversial view

I mean, US public spending is already unsustainably high.
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