To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#301

Post by Grustaf » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:40 PM UTC

MetalGuru wrote: post #111

tsimionescu wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're discussing from a position that puts team efficiency (and company efficiency) above any other value. You may in fact be right that certain kinds of diversity can hurt team efficiency (for an obvious example, if you already have a team of white power types, hiring a black man on that mteam will lead to morale issues). However, in practice, and especially for large companies, optimizing only for efficiency is si…

I’m genuinely curious, why is it a company’s responsibility (in a capitalist society) to hire someone less efficient? I agree that work is fundamentally important, but how is this not the government’s responsibility like any other welfare effort? Also, are you claiming that employment is an undeniable human right like free speech or protection from harm? And if so, what happens if there’s something like another Great…

You can see it as a sort of tax. For certain categories it certainly makes sense, like young women (that will likely get pregnant and take time off) because society absolutely needs people to have children. For people with various mental issues it is less clear that the burden should be put on each individual company. Perhaps better to have programs that help them find work that fits them?

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#302

Post by pjkundert » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:42 PM UTC

dawg- wrote: post #264

This brings up the same core issue as all official diversity initiatives: as soon as you talk about it, you destroy it. When you make diversity a focus and celebrate yourself for being diverse, then the spirit of diversity is ruined. It's like something out of a zen koan. A truly diverse organization would not need to put out press releases and build its brand on being diverse, nor would they need to start official i…

The only true diversity in human affairs is Intellectual diversity -- which is the antithesis of the goal of all corporate "diversity" campaigns: Virtual Signaling for Profit.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#303

Post by asdf21 » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #206

PeterStuer wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is "frat house full of brogrammers" just a meme then? I have always wondered since I first heard the term, as it seems so remote from the reality I experience. And yet, it gets punted around so much you wouldn't think that it would be hard to find a brogrammer shop. On the contrary, going by the 'reputation' you'd think they would be so numerous as to almost be hard to avoid.

Yes, it's a meme. It's a quick and easy way to dismiss a of predominantly/exclusively white male team in a way that will get most people to say "Ugh, yuck!" without having any substantive criticism. After 10 years hopping between Austin and San Francisco, hipsters with impressive beards and flannel seem at least 100x more common than brogrammers.

It's socially acceptable to hate / slander fraternity members (see the rolling stone rape case,) but it's not socially acceptable to hate hipsters, only to casually poke fun at them.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#304

Post by tenaciousDaniel » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:51 PM UTC

dawg- wrote: post #264

This brings up the same core issue as all official diversity initiatives: as soon as you talk about it, you destroy it. When you make diversity a focus and celebrate yourself for being diverse, then the spirit of diversity is ruined. It's like something out of a zen koan. A truly diverse organization would not need to put out press releases and build its brand on being diverse, nor would they need to start official i…

This is 1000% true. Before getting into tech, I did odd jobs for years. I worked in the restaurant industry, retail clothing, hospitals, landscaping, etc. I worked in teams where I was the only man, teams where we were all men, and teams with a somewhat even split.

Diversity was never anything more than a short HR training session, and that was it. There was no advocacy, no talk of being "allies". And everything just worked.

Even though I prefer working on diverse teams (diverse along any and every dimension), I really dislike virtually all current activism that's supposed to be about diversity. It just feels...gross.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#305

Post by SolaceQuantum » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:51 PM UTC

CapricornNoble wrote: post #285

WillDaSilva wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men and women still don't work well together Citations needed. I've never had any issues working with women, nor have I heard any coworkers or friends express this belief, or raise issues about working with members of the opposite gender. I don't think people aren't talking about this because it's "politically incorrect", but rather because most people (at least in Canada) simply don't have any issues working with…

>>>Citations needed Women in the infantry -- The Effect on the Moral Domain.[1] Covers a lot of ground, with pro/con data points across multiple nations and several decades. [2] Is about the Navy's struggle with the costs and effectiveness impacts of pregnancies. Can gender-integrated work forces produce (whatever the metric is for "productivity" in a particular domain). Yes. Will management/leadership responsibiliti…

Do you have citations outside of the military context? I don't mean to be nitpicky, but what makes the military efficient and what makes civilian life efficient tend to be at extreme odds quite often.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#306

Post by asdf21 » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:56 PM UTC

crtlaltdel wrote: post #242

PeterStuer wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind a sidequestion: I have worked with and met with probably close to 100 start/scale-up companies in the software domain. I have not yet met a 'brogammer' shop. Some hipster dens, and yes, when the founder is a twenty something you will be hard pressed to find anyone over 30. So is this 'brogrammer frathouse' a regional thing? Or is it maybe a B2C thing as I mostly work with B2B companies?

every startup i’ve been involved with that is compromised of mostly first-time employees (either little work experience in general or no previous startup experience) has exhibited similar tendencies: 1. emphasis on drinking: “gotta have happy hour/get a keg” 2. off-site team building exercises that eat into personal/family time 3. disparaging competition, especially incumbents, often based on superficial things like…

If I can't play some ping pong during my interview, I'm not interested.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#307

Post by BurritoAlPastor » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 4:06 PM UTC

dannypgh wrote: post #250

repomies691 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the point is that companies shouldn't be frat houses full of brogrammers. Usually the founders/owners decide what a company is. Often it seems to me that there are plenty of other motivations to run a company. The founders hire people who they like to hang out with, maybe same hobbies etc. However I personally have never came across a company that could be described as a "frat house" or even which would hav…

> Often it seems to me that there are plenty of other motivations to run a company. The founders hire people who they like to hang out with, maybe same hobbies etc. There are laws against employment discrimination, and I suggest to you most people aiming for "people who they like to hang out with with" will result in an outcome, intentional or not, of illegal discrimination.

If you look at the set of all the people in the world you like to hang out with, and somehow, incidentally, nobody from a discrimination-protected group is in that set... I have some bad news for you about your personal biases.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#308

Post by tsss » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 4:07 PM UTC

kls wrote: post #292

Leherenn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit". You describe it yourself as a frat house, which, I assume from the rest of your post, is not what you want. Work is not always only about output and skills, especially in a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues. It says nothing about your skills, just that both sides would probably be miserable in case you were hired…

As a person who was a young developer in the .com boom and a middle-age programmer now, I think youth puts too much focus on this and lack experience in this area. I think there is a general opinion that the old guys will ruin everything and serious up the environment. When my experience has been the exact opposite, the old guys usually bring in some good practices the young guys find are good ideas but they really d…

To them not participating is the same as refusal. I have also been rejected from a startup like this for not being "enthusiastic" enough.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#309

Post by lsniddy » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

dawg- wrote: post #264

This brings up the same core issue as all official diversity initiatives: as soon as you talk about it, you destroy it. When you make diversity a focus and celebrate yourself for being diverse, then the spirit of diversity is ruined. It's like something out of a zen koan. A truly diverse organization would not need to put out press releases and build its brand on being diverse, nor would they need to start official i…

I can understand how diversity in experience and personality can be positive from a business perspective, but why can't the inverse be true as well?

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#310

Post by notyourday » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

romwell wrote: post #293

notyourday wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> specifically, the only way a 35-year-old is not a "culture fit" in "a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues" is if that company is discriminating by age. So you, as a 35 year old, want to work in a company that has a 14 hour days, including at least one weekend work culture which is what created a nearly forced socialization with one's coworkers who are in their early twenties…

I am not the person who wrote the post, BUT they didn't mention anything of the unusual working hours or a pay cut (that they wouldn't take). And in any case, this is something that's discussed outright (hours) and while extending an offer (salary). Socialization outside of working hours is nobody's business, and reaches into illegal land (I don't care if one doesn't socialize with old/black/other gender people; but…

Startups pay less money in fact significantly less than established companies. That is known.

Thirty five year olds rarely agree to work for the amount of money twenty year olds agree to work for. That is also known.

This means that a thirty five year old going to a startup of twenty year olds is going to take a paycut.

Startups push people to work more hours. Young people are OK with that because they do not have a social life apart from finding someone to have sex with and having sex with that person. That is also reasonably well known. That means their life is sleeping/working/having sex with people. Long hours at work by people who do not have anything else to do act as a filler. That's why startups that have lots of young people working in them tend to push long hours. If you are there just to get a paycheck then it would mean getting an effective pay cut.

> Socialization outside of working hours is nobody's business, and reaches into illegal land (I don't care if one doesn't socialize with old/black/other gender people; but making hiring decisions based on that is illegal).

If you are working 14 hour days with group of same people those are going to be people you would be socializing with. It is the case everywhere -- be that oil rigs, armed forces. It is a matter of proximity and logistics.