To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#291

Post by RobertRoberts » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:03 PM UTC

tarsinge wrote: post #154

RobertRoberts wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird may be a simple emotional feeling people get because they sense you will mistreat them. (likely based on previous experience) What I have found dealing with people that are Aspie/ADD (father and brother) is they expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior to adapt to others. (even when directly told their behavior is not acceptable) This means that many socia…

The problem is that if you are aspie not being awkward and rude takes 100% of your brain for conscious analysis, whereas for neurotyoical people it’s the opposite it takes a conscious decision to be rude. So it’s impossible for an aspie to change permanently while working.

There are many jobs that require certain mental characteristics to be employable. A person can't be acrophobic and work as a high-rise construction worker.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#292

Post by kls » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

Leherenn wrote: post #94

icotyl wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the opposite experience. I don't have Asperger's or ADD, but I'm shy and struggle with eye contact and small talk. I interviewed at about ten startups, and despite doing well on the technical questions, I got rejected every time. I began to suspect it was because of "culture fit" -- will this 35 year old introvert fit in at our frat house/office? I was getting pretty depressed after all that rejection, but I go…

I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit". You describe it yourself as a frat house, which, I assume from the rest of your post, is not what you want. Work is not always only about output and skills, especially in a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues. It says nothing about your skills, just that both sides would probably be miserable in case you were hired…

As a person who was a young developer in the .com boom and a middle-age programmer now, I think youth puts too much focus on this and lack experience in this area. I think there is a general opinion that the old guys will ruin everything and serious up the environment. When my experience has been the exact opposite, the old guys usually bring in some good practices the young guys find are good ideas but they really don't care about the culture or changing it. At my age now, I enjoy the antics and find them amusing, joke with my younger colleges and tend to get along well with them. I just don't hang at the bar with them until 3 in the morning. I think a lot of younger programmers would be surprised at how much older developers don't infringe on their culture, they may not be an active participant in all circumstances of said culture but a lot of them, lived it, and have a boys will be boys attitude about it. If anything I would say that many older programmers are a passive cultural fit for a youth oriented company.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#293

Post by romwell » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #238

romwell wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit" You should understand that what you wrote sounds like discrimination by age (and sex, "frat" means male), which is illegal - and for good reasons. EDIT: specifically, the only way a 35-year-old is not a "culture fit" in "a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues" is if that company is discriminating by age. I don't hav…

> specifically, the only way a 35-year-old is not a "culture fit" in "a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues" is if that company is discriminating by age. So you, as a 35 year old, want to work in a company that has a 14 hour days, including at least one weekend work culture which is what created a nearly forced socialization with one's coworkers who are in their early twenties…

I am not the person who wrote the post, BUT they didn't mention anything of the unusual working hours or a pay cut (that they wouldn't take).

And in any case, this is something that's discussed outright (hours) and while extending an offer (salary).

Socialization outside of working hours is nobody's business, and reaches into illegal land (I don't care if one doesn't socialize with old/black/other gender people; but making hiring decisions based on that is illegal).

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#294

Post by kempbellt » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:10 PM UTC

dominicr wrote: post #138

Leherenn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit". You describe it yourself as a frat house, which, I assume from the rest of your post, is not what you want. Work is not always only about output and skills, especially in a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues. It says nothing about your skills, just that both sides would probably be miserable in case you were hired…

I think the point is that companies shouldn't be frat houses full of brogrammers. If you want to hang out with your friends and wrestle to decide coding patterns, then that's all well and good. But the second that it becomes a company that employs people it should be more mature, equal and accepting. Work is indeed not always only about output and skills, it's also about respecting each other and collaborating with d…

Companies should be comprised of whatever works best to build the product effectively that people want to buy.

Your argument could be used to ban beanbag chairs, nerf-guns, and kegs from the office because it doesn't meet your "maturity" standards. I've worked at places that have all of these and we made a productive and effective team.

If you don't like the company culture, complaining that they aren't "mature enough" is childish. It's their company...

Find a company that suits your temperament and everyone wins - which is what I believe OP was getting at.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#295

Post by sidlls » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:23 PM UTC

gridlockd wrote: post #279

sidlls wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think it should be. Companies are afforded protections and benefits under the law. They owe society something in return for that. One of the things I think they owe is a responsibility to act in certain ways with respect to the general public, which includes their own employees.

> Companies are afforded protections and benefits under the law. They owe society something in return for that. I don't like this way of thinking. Individuals are also afforded unsolicited "protections and benefits". Therefore, individuals owe society? That's basically like the Mafia offering you protection, at a price.

"This way of thinking" is otherwise known as "civilization."

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#296

Post by Grustaf » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:27 PM UTC

nightcracker wrote: post #271

NoGravitas wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black fraternities (well, historically black) do exist, both at HBCUs and at other colleges and universities. And one thing that's particularly notable is that historically black fraternities tend to be more public-service oriented than historically white fraternities, which are more purely social clubs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African-American_frate...

I know they exist, and my comment was tongue in cheek, not to be taken literally. But in every joke there is a core of truth. People use language to disparage minorities or downplay the transgressions of the majority all the time. E.g. nationalist extremist violent acts are done by "lone wolfs" or "mentally ill" people while the exact same atrocities by other groups are done by "terrorists".

I’ve heard that lone wolf vs terrorist meme so many times, are there actually any studies on this, or even examples?

I’m also not sure if being a “mentally ill” mass murderer is much better than a “terrorist” mass murderer.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#297

Post by mywittyname » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:27 PM UTC

gaspoweredcat wrote: post #149

i have ASD and ADD, it certainly isnt easy, while i have ability my social skills are pretty terrible and the sad truth is that is what an interview is about, regardless of what the job is the one thing basically everyone has to have is the ability to work in sales because thats basically what you have to do at an interview, sell yourself (in full knowledge that there are others applying for the same position with mo…

I wonder if the people instituting these policies actually understand how ASD people really are. There's a reason people in this group are discriminated against, most companies put a high value on team work, group cohesion, and whatnot. Most ASD people are not, as you say, team players. Add to that, their inherent abrasiveness and lack of social awareness, and it becomes clear that a hiring ASD people is going to create challenges within companies.

I think there's this mythos that ASD people are inherently smarter than "neurotypicals," but I don't think this is the case at all. I've worked with lots of people who are charming, charismatic, and highly intelligent & technical.

> i find talking about myself awkward at the best of times, getting asked to pull random events where i think i might have pleased someone etc and turn them into some mini story on the fly is never going to end well for me

I hate this too. Especially since the few times I've opened up to people, it has lead to (what I perceive to be) teasing. And when you're already shy and awkward, teasing just makes you hate the world.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#298

Post by Agenttin » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

stared wrote: post #7

As an Aspie/ADD, I have never passed any formal interview, even for an intern position (sic!). (You can compare and contrast it with my GitHub/Resume/blog to make a judgment.) Fortunately, many times (even for mid-size companies or research institutes) the hiring was less formal. For small startups, where it is informal, I didn't feel at a disadvantage. For big, I don't believe I can pass through the first filter. It…

I'd like to suggest an easier way to say (s)he or her/him. Just replace it with they, they're, and them. It means the same thing but doesn't draw attention.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#299

Post by Grustaf » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

gbear605 wrote: post #232

goatinaboat wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace "aspie" with "black man" and your entire response is blatantly prejudiced. Not remotely comparable unless you are implying that black people “expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior” which by the way is pretty racist.

They’re comparable because neither autistic people nor black people “expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior.”

It’s still not comparable because blackness is not a behavior at all.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#300

Post by bryanrasmussen » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:32 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #148

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure most of the people who have problems with where do you see yourself in 5 years, what's your biggest weakness, tell me about a time when things didn't go as planned etc. will have just as big a problem with how you'd like to be interviewed - I know for me the answer for how would you like to be interviewed is honestly I would not like to be interviewed in any way whatsoever.

You can ask that question in writing and with no expectation for an immediate response. Much less terrifying that way. And you'd ask it like: "Here's a bunch of different options for assessing your skills, which one do you think would showcase your strengths best and fits into your schedule etc? Please take your time to think it over, a reply by next week is fine."

ok that makes more sense than how I was envisioning it in my head.