To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#201

Post by trampypizza » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:38 AM UTC

K0SM0S wrote: post #68

shantly wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I had that exact one once early on. I did actually get an "if you could go back in time a couple years, what advice would you give yourself?" a little while ago, which 1) threw me, because I wasn't expecting much of that formula crap from this place, and 2) I hadn't prepped for, so I just punted, being able to think of very little other than things unrelated to work but also lame, cliché, or "don't interview…

I'm curious, what do you think is a "good" answer? Because, from the interviewer standpoint, here's what such questions are about. Prepare to have your mind blown, maybe. 1. Hiring is by far the most stressful, unpredictable, career-destroying part of a manager's job. And that's as an employee, if that's your business (founder, entrepreneur) you're scared shitless that a mistake may plain and simple ruin your busines…

I'm not sure if this breaks the rules by not being a substantive comment - but I'd just like to thank you for writing this out. As somebody who is trying to move into a very competitive field (and finding out just how competitive it is the hard way), this kind of insight is really valuable.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#202

Post by Nimitz14 » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:39 AM UTC

goatinaboat wrote: post #159

RobertRoberts wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird may be a simple emotional feeling people get because they sense you will mistreat them. (likely based on previous experience) What I have found dealing with people that are Aspie/ADD (father and brother) is they expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior to adapt to others. (even when directly told their behavior is not acceptable) This means that many socia…

they expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior That is something that is always overlooked. What about the mental health of the rest of the team who are expected to just smile when someone is obnoxiously rude to them over and over and over again? With no recourse to report it to HR? Every “aspie” probably actively harms the mental health of a dozen ordinary peopl…

Definitely. As someone with a father on the spectrum the current trend of "Autism acceptance" drives me nuts.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#203

Post by tsimionescu » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:39 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #106

tsimionescu wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're discussing from a position that puts team efficiency (and company efficiency) above any other value. You may in fact be right that certain kinds of diversity can hurt team efficiency (for an obvious example, if you already have a team of white power types, hiring a black man on that mteam will lead to morale issues). However, in practice, and especially for large companies, optimizing only for efficiency is si…

> Since the ability to find a place to work is so important for any individual in our society to have a chance at a decent life, companies' social responsibilities must have them potentially sacrifice some efficiency to prevent discrimination of large groups. I think about this often, so let me try to play the devil’s advocate: (1) why are we (the society) allowed (even encouraged) to discriminate for intelligence at…

For (1) I think the 'intelligence' that we discriminate for in all those cases is such a vague term that it essentially means 'being good at X'.

If that is the case, obviously we discriminate by it, because we try to choose people who are better at X when trying to find people for X. Tether there is a single underlying characteristic that makes you better at X (a pre-determined IQ) that is discriminated for is perhaps harder to know. I certainly don't think that school for example advances students based purely on intelligence - discipline, even obedience, like-ability, sometimes teamwork, are all at least as important to what makes most good students successful.

Related to 2,my answer is very simple: companies don't take the full burden, at least in most countries. In general, there is a shared burden - the employee has reduced pay, the state is paying for some or most of that, and the company is forced to keep the position open for the employee when they decide to return. In my country at least, they are also free to hire a temp to fill that position for the 1 or 2 years of maternal leave.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#204

Post by PeterisP » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:40 AM UTC

tzs wrote: post #30

pwim wrote: post #15

Any hiring process will by definition favour certain kinds of candidates at the expense of others. Having a week long paid trial is a great way for the company to be less conservative about who they try out, but will also mean they’ll miss out on candidates who are already employed and unwilling to take time off or quit their job to participate in it. In the end though, if they can tap into an undervalued candidate p…

In this case, the week long paid trial is work from home, and I did not notice anything that said that the work had to be done during normal businesses hours. It should be possible for most people to fit that in around their current employment.

Many employment contracts prohibit working a week for another software company, possibly a competitor, without approval from the employer.

I can start working for you - even if it's just for a week - only after I've quit my current job. So working that week before a hiring decision is simply not an option, even ignoring all the issues of time availability.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#205

Post by otaviokz » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:42 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #3

> Instead of using CVs and interviews, potential employees undergo a basic competency assessment in which they are evaluated against 25 desirable attributes for software testers, such as the ability to learn new systems or take on feedback. Following these initial tests, potential staff undergo a week of working from home fully paid. They still have an interview. It just isn’t like a traditional interview. You need t…

Also, it seems out of question for people who're employed. Not sure how to "WFH one week", paid or not, when you have another job.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#206

Post by caseysoftware » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:45 AM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #192

dominicr wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert and I've mostly been in Europe with marginal time in the US, so I don't know the frequency of occurrence. I think what's slightly more common is homogenous teams within companies that form an overwhelming culture, rather than entire company cultures. Teams do form their own ways of working and their own cultures, and this is fine: it's human and it can be positive. Healthy teams adapt to new members and…

So is "frat house full of brogrammers" just a meme then? I have always wondered since I first heard the term, as it seems so remote from the reality I experience. And yet, it gets punted around so much you wouldn't think that it would be hard to find a brogrammer shop. On the contrary, going by the 'reputation' you'd think they would be so numerous as to almost be hard to avoid.

Yes, it's a meme. It's a quick and easy way to dismiss a of predominantly/exclusively white male team in a way that will get most people to say "Ugh, yuck!" without having any substantive criticism.

After 10 years hopping between Austin and San Francisco, hipsters with impressive beards and flannel seem at least 100x more common than brogrammers.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#207

Post by marksweston » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:46 AM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #192

dominicr wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert and I've mostly been in Europe with marginal time in the US, so I don't know the frequency of occurrence. I think what's slightly more common is homogenous teams within companies that form an overwhelming culture, rather than entire company cultures. Teams do form their own ways of working and their own cultures, and this is fine: it's human and it can be positive. Healthy teams adapt to new members and…

So is "frat house full of brogrammers" just a meme then? I have always wondered since I first heard the term, as it seems so remote from the reality I experience. And yet, it gets punted around so much you wouldn't think that it would be hard to find a brogrammer shop. On the contrary, going by the 'reputation' you'd think they would be so numerous as to almost be hard to avoid.

Name a thing and you summon it into existence.

'Brogrammer' started as a witticism and has become a social phenomenon that people discuss as though it was based on rigorous observation and not just a joke.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#208

Post by ggambetta » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:55 AM UTC

stared wrote: post #7

As an Aspie/ADD, I have never passed any formal interview, even for an intern position (sic!). (You can compare and contrast it with my GitHub/Resume/blog to make a judgment.) Fortunately, many times (even for mid-size companies or research institutes) the hiring was less formal. For small startups, where it is informal, I didn't feel at a disadvantage. For big, I don't believe I can pass through the first filter. It…

You might be interested in this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#209

Post by dominicr » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:57 AM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #192

dominicr wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert and I've mostly been in Europe with marginal time in the US, so I don't know the frequency of occurrence. I think what's slightly more common is homogenous teams within companies that form an overwhelming culture, rather than entire company cultures. Teams do form their own ways of working and their own cultures, and this is fine: it's human and it can be positive. Healthy teams adapt to new members and…

So is "frat house full of brogrammers" just a meme then? I have always wondered since I first heard the term, as it seems so remote from the reality I experience. And yet, it gets punted around so much you wouldn't think that it would be hard to find a brogrammer shop. On the contrary, going by the 'reputation' you'd think they would be so numerous as to almost be hard to avoid.

I agree that this isn't common and the use of a memified word was not useful. I think the mental image of "brogrammers" is often literally coding jocks, which is inaccurate. It is often badly used to equate to a homogenous and closed culture within a team, often young and male. However same can indeed happen with other group of people. The example of alpha-maleness I can think of is Paypal: https://twitter.com/SaddestRobots/status/1184885797419401216

A better way of describing the problem from the original article is that infleixible & homogenous teams make it harder for people who don't fit a personality type to contribute to the work & work culture.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#210

Post by chownie » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 10:13 AM UTC

jonny383 wrote: post #142

peferron wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any software engineer that wants to build a _real career_ with _real progression_ will already know that changing jobs should be done by connections, not cold-applying for jobs. If you can get referred, sure, do that. Why should that be a requirement to build a "real career" with "real progression" though? (And what does that even mean?) Earlier this year I interviewed with several companies. I was referred to some…

>If you can get referred, sure, do that. Why should that be a requirement to build a "real career" with "real progression" though? (And what does that even mean?) It means moving away from being a shit-kicker coder to a more senior position at a fast pace. And eventually on to upper management. If you ever want to reach upper-management, you basically have two choices: A) You work from the ground up _at the same comp…

What if you don't ever want to reach upper-management, or management at all?

My skills are firmly technical, I don't have the desire nor the skillset for management. I'm just starting my career in software engineering, is there nowhere to go upward except management?