To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#181

Post by x220 » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 8:42 AM UTC

Smithalicious wrote: post #124

romwell wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit" You should understand that what you wrote sounds like discrimination by age (and sex, "frat" means male), which is illegal - and for good reasons. EDIT: specifically, the only way a 35-year-old is not a "culture fit" in "a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues" is if that company is discriminating by age. I don't hav…

Is it? It's discrimination by things that correlate with age, sure, but many things do.

What if instead of discriminating by race, you don't hire people who live in mostly-black neighborhoods?

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#182

Post by mnw21cam » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 8:43 AM UTC

stared wrote: post #36

core-questions wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've heard it so many times about people interviewing others, as "(s)he is smart, passed all test, but weird, I don't like to work with her/him". At this point, it is systemic discrimination. No, that's a misnomer. Systematic discrimination implies the system itself codifies this behaviour - but instead, what is codified is _team fit_, which is often based heavily on intuition. Humans are capable of being good judg…

Aspies have some advantages and disadvantages. Not hiring an Aspie because, say, we need a person who is comfortable with a lot of noise and distractions, is a skill-based decision. I understand no willingness to adapt (though, if it were about other aspects of a person, there will be a lot of rants; and possibly lawsuits). However, when there is a Resume, interview or recommendation letter stage that implicitly uses…

> Not hiring an Aspie because, say, we need a person who is comfortable with a lot of noise and distractions, is a skill-based decision.

No, it isn't. It is a workplace environment problem, and if a workplace is not willing to make reasonable adjustments to accommodate the needs of a worker, or allows such unwillingness to affect the hiring decisions, then they are breaking the law.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#183

Post by x220 » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 8:44 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #139

Leherenn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit". You describe it yourself as a frat house, which, I assume from the rest of your post, is not what you want. Work is not always only about output and skills, especially in a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues. It says nothing about your skills, just that both sides would probably be miserable in case you were hired…

> especially in a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues So you'd discriminate against introverts because the team are awful at socializing? Apart from how sad that sounds and how awful it is for people (you're whole life has single point of failure), it also sounds very self defeating. > Work is not always only about output and skills Treating it that way is basically the founda…

>you're whole life has single point of failure

wontfix, working as intended. The startup wants you dependent on them for everything and to spend nearly all your waking hours inside their office so they can coerce your loyalty.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#184

Post by x220 » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 8:45 AM UTC

icotyl wrote: post #101

mnsc wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had the opposite experience. I don't have Asperger's or ADD (...) So you had experience that's not related to interviewing with Asperger's or ADD. That's cool too.

I can certainly relate to coming off as weird or socially awkward or unintentionally rude, and it has affected my job interview performance. People diagnosed with ADD/Asperger's don't really have a monopoly on that.

Autistic people are not awkward in the way that you are awkward, unless you're an undiagnosed autistic.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#185

Post by x220 » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 8:51 AM UTC

goatinaboat wrote: post #159

RobertRoberts wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird may be a simple emotional feeling people get because they sense you will mistreat them. (likely based on previous experience) What I have found dealing with people that are Aspie/ADD (father and brother) is they expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior to adapt to others. (even when directly told their behavior is not acceptable) This means that many socia…

they expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior That is something that is always overlooked. What about the mental health of the rest of the team who are expected to just smile when someone is obnoxiously rude to them over and over and over again? With no recourse to report it to HR? Every “aspie” probably actively harms the mental health of a dozen ordinary peopl…

>Every “aspie” probably actively harms the mental health of a dozen ordinary people, but that’s invisible

Replace "aspie" with "black man" and your entire response is blatantly prejudiced. In my experience this is a boogieman people fear will crawl out from under their bed at night. All but one of the autistic ("aspie" is outdated) people I know understand their shortcomings and adapt as best as they can. There will always be assholes in every group; if you're not prejudiced, you judge the asshole rather than stereotyping the entire group.

Nearly all autistic people know they act weird and would like to act normal but don't know how. You have to weigh the costs and benefits. What's worse: you are occasionally made uncomfortable, or an autistic person gets fired? Are you willing to make no compromise in this conflict with coworkers? If so, it would be hypocritical.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#186

Post by x220 » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 8:54 AM UTC

stared wrote: post #36

core-questions wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've heard it so many times about people interviewing others, as "(s)he is smart, passed all test, but weird, I don't like to work with her/him". At this point, it is systemic discrimination. No, that's a misnomer. Systematic discrimination implies the system itself codifies this behaviour - but instead, what is codified is _team fit_, which is often based heavily on intuition. Humans are capable of being good judg…

Aspies have some advantages and disadvantages. Not hiring an Aspie because, say, we need a person who is comfortable with a lot of noise and distractions, is a skill-based decision. I understand no willingness to adapt (though, if it were about other aspects of a person, there will be a lot of rants; and possibly lawsuits). However, when there is a Resume, interview or recommendation letter stage that implicitly uses…

>Not hiring an Aspie because, say, we need a person who is comfortable with a lot of noise and distractions, is a skill-based decision

No, that's discrimination. Autism is a disability and companies are required to make reasonable accommodations. A hipster startup wouldn't get away with being wheelchair-inaccessible because that would be discriminating against the disabled. Unless you're running a restaurant or factory or operation like that you have no reasonable excuse to discriminate against the disabled.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#187

Post by goatinaboat » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 8:56 AM UTC

x220 wrote: post #185

goatinaboat wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior That is something that is always overlooked. What about the mental health of the rest of the team who are expected to just smile when someone is obnoxiously rude to them over and over and over again? With no recourse to report it to HR? Every “aspie” probably actively harms the mental health of a dozen ordinary peopl…

>Every “aspie” probably actively harms the mental health of a dozen ordinary people, but that’s invisible Replace "aspie" with "black man" and your entire response is blatantly prejudiced. In my experience this is a boogieman people fear will crawl out from under their bed at night. All but one of the autistic ("aspie" is outdated) people I know understand their shortcomings and adapt as best as they can. There will…

Replace "aspie" with "black man" and your entire response is blatantly prejudiced.

Not remotely comparable unless you are implying that black people “expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior” which by the way is pretty racist.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#188

Post by jonny383 » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 8:58 AM UTC

pheug wrote: post #135

jonny383 wrote: post #100

Any software engineer that wants to build a _real career_ with _real progression_ will already know that changing jobs should be done by connections, not cold-applying for jobs. Sure you need to get your foot in the door, but if you don't utilize the connections you've made throughout your working history, you either A) weren't useful enough to build higher standing connections, or B) were probably too focused on bei…

What you describe mostly applies to smaller companies or niche domains. FAANG hiring is much more formalized and your connections hardly matter beyond getting invited for an interview.

I would love some examples of big technology companies that have hired someone into upper management that didn't already have some kind of industry or common connection.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#189

Post by mkohlmyr » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:02 AM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #43

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #8

> Five years in, 75% of Ultranauts’ staff are on the autistic spectrum – and one reason for this is its innovative approach to hiring. Given that autism has a significant male to female ratio (quick Googling suggested 4:1 for Male:Female for autism), this seems to indicate that their percentage of women developers is low.

4:1 is about the ratio of male to female developers anyway so they shouldn’t be doing too bad.

If you take a group that's 4:1 on average, and then apply a subgroup filter which is also typically 4:1, that doesn't imply it comes out at 4:1 on the whole. Correct me if I'm wrong. It seems very likely that their ratio is far worse than that.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#190

Post by peferron » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:03 AM UTC

jonny383 wrote: post #142

peferron wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any software engineer that wants to build a _real career_ with _real progression_ will already know that changing jobs should be done by connections, not cold-applying for jobs. If you can get referred, sure, do that. Why should that be a requirement to build a "real career" with "real progression" though? (And what does that even mean?) Earlier this year I interviewed with several companies. I was referred to some…

>If you can get referred, sure, do that. Why should that be a requirement to build a "real career" with "real progression" though? (And what does that even mean?) It means moving away from being a shit-kicker coder to a more senior position at a fast pace. And eventually on to upper management. If you ever want to reach upper-management, you basically have two choices: A) You work from the ground up _at the same comp…

But you can have a "real career" without ending in management. In the Bay Area you can make absurd amounts of money as individual contributor. Not C-level of absurd, but high enough to be fine with earning less but enjoying your work more—money is only a means to an end, after all.

Also, the only way I'd be interested in going into upper management would be as technical co-founder, which requires neither grinding levels nor job-hopping.

Overall I think you're being a bit too reductive about what a "real career" means.