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To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

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Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#61
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've heard it so many times about people interviewing others, as "(s)he is smart, passed all test, but weird, I don't like to work with her/him". At this point, it is systemic discrimination. No, that's a misnomer. Systematic discrimination implies the system itself codifies this behaviour - but instead, what is codified is _team fit_, which is often based heavily on intuition. Humans are capable of being good judg…

This reads almost identical to the rationales against hiring women from past decades. Women did not fit in with the male teams; ingrained misogyny was so common. And yes, they didn't behave the same, and had special needs (they were still expected to be mothers, needed separate toilets installed, customs like having the boss over for dinner prepared by wife didn't work, weekend golf and the bloke talk was unthinkable…

> ingrained misogyny was so common

Was? I wouldn't call it misogyny, because it isn't out of hate but out of the unique social dynamics between genders, but absolutely nothing has changed except one thing: it's now politically incorrect and against the rules to actually say what you think/feel, so everyone hides it.

Men and women still don't work well together. The attraction dynamics between them still overpower any attempts at keeping things professional. The social differences are still all there.

As a proud owner of an ADHD brain, I don't understand the victimhood narrative at all. If someone doesn't want to work with me because I feel "weird" to them, why would I want to work with them? Why should they be forced to work with me? Who says I'm entitled to a job? Who says they owe me anything?

And most importantly, I would need to be sickeningly entitled and delusional to assume that society has to adapt to fit me rather than vice-versa. That's the kind of reasoning children use when throwing irrational tantrums.

I've never had trouble socializing, but ADHD does produce all sorts of strange behavioral patterns. It's 100% my responsibility, as a human being with personal agency, to read the room and adapt my behavior to the society in which I'm participating, not for the entire rest of the world to cater to me.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#62
post #30
post #15

Any hiring process will by definition favour certain kinds of candidates at the expense of others. Having a week long paid trial is a great way for the company to be less conservative about who they try out, but will also mean they’ll miss out on candidates who are already employed and unwilling to take time off or quit their job to participate in it. In the end though, if they can tap into an undervalued candidate p…

In this case, the week long paid trial is work from home, and I did not notice anything that said that the work had to be done during normal businesses hours. It should be possible for most people to fit that in around their current employment.

So now I have to work 16h a day for a week? That won’t affect my performance at all.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#63

A young recruiter asked me how I interview people. I asked him what his favorite video game was. Super smash brothers, he said. I asked if he could ask enough questions to gauge how much of an expert someone was. He said, "of course!" Asking a lot of general questions about a number of things and encouraging them to go into detail often shows if they've been there, done that, and shared in the same blood sweat and te…

> Hiring bad people in engineering can cripple your services. Adding code that's hard to understand, has poor time complexity, or is over-engineered can add more technical debt that any one feature is solving for, and reworking that code can cost way more time than it originally took to write once it's part of some production service.

So use code reviews prior to merging, and prevent that code from becoming part of that production service. If they're then unwilling to incorporate that feedback into their code, it might be time to review their contract.

Edit: Assuming people are capable of reviewing each other's code.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#64
post #7

As an Aspie/ADD, I have never passed any formal interview, even for an intern position (sic!). (You can compare and contrast it with my GitHub/Resume/blog to make a judgment.) Fortunately, many times (even for mid-size companies or research institutes) the hiring was less formal. For small startups, where it is informal, I didn't feel at a disadvantage. For big, I don't believe I can pass through the first filter. It…

Weird may be a simple emotional feeling people get because they sense you will mistreat them. (likely based on previous experience)

What I have found dealing with people that are Aspie/ADD (father and brother) is they expect others to change behavior to adapt to themselves, but refuse to change their own behavior to adapt to others. (even when directly told their behavior is not acceptable)

This means that many social problems (like work interactions) only have a one sided solution, and this turns into a simple form of abuse acceptance.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#65
post #58

Am in this demo, and my interview experiences have been bewildering. Whenever someone has actually tried to assess my skills and get me do something, so almost never, it is always fine. In an interview, I have almost no idea what is happening and it is never fine. Yes, this isn't going to suit everyone but the point is that suits some people who were totally shut out before.

It may be infeasible for a number of reasons, but this post makes me wonder whether it'd be worth asking candidates how they'd like to be interviewed , then doing that.

I'm pretty sure most of the people who have problems with where do you see yourself in 5 years, what's your biggest weakness, tell me about a time when things didn't go as planned etc. will have just as big a problem with how you'd like to be interviewed - I know for me the answer for how would you like to be interviewed is honestly I would not like to be interviewed in any way whatsoever.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#66
post #30
post #15

Any hiring process will by definition favour certain kinds of candidates at the expense of others. Having a week long paid trial is a great way for the company to be less conservative about who they try out, but will also mean they’ll miss out on candidates who are already employed and unwilling to take time off or quit their job to participate in it. In the end though, if they can tap into an undervalued candidate p…

In this case, the week long paid trial is work from home, and I did not notice anything that said that the work had to be done during normal businesses hours. It should be possible for most people to fit that in around their current employment.

it sure is a good thing that most people don't have children or stuff they need to do after 8-10 hours workdays otherwise this wouldn't work for most people.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#67
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my startup we did a round of "come in for an interview, pass FizzBuzz on a whiteboard, if you passed FizzBuzz you can come back for a 4 hour trial where you solve a small task representative of normal work in our normal work environment". We only hired students for 10-20 hours per week, so fairly low risk for both sides. My main takeaway from that was that the actual talking was close to useless for judging candid…

In my experience interviews are less effective with students because they rarely have relevant experience to talk about. At the mid level and above tests and technical questions become less useful, but they can talk about meaningful past projects. I don’t know of anything else that’s predictive without weeding great people out. PS: It’s odd, but I suspect a random process may actually work better because the great pe…

>PS: It’s odd, but I suspect a random process may actually work better because the great people actively looking for jobs are likely to be bad at getting them.

Somebody should almost build a toy startup around that random process eg Chatroulette for hiring. that might make sense.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#68
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never in my entire career have I been asked the 'where do you see yourself in 5 years' question. It doesn't even make sense in the tech world. In five years? There's a good chance your company/business unit won't exist and I'll be 1-2 jobs on from this one mate. Don't worry about it. It sounds like a hollywood movie cliche you'd hear at an interview scene. I'd laugh if I got that question in an actual interview. I'm…

I think I had that exact one once early on. I did actually get an "if you could go back in time a couple years, what advice would you give yourself?" a little while ago, which 1) threw me, because I wasn't expecting much of that formula crap from this place, and 2) I hadn't prepped for, so I just punted, being able to think of very little other than things unrelated to work but also lame, cliché, or "don't interview…

I'm curious, what do you think is a "good" answer?

Because, from the interviewer standpoint, here's what such questions are about. Prepare to have your mind blown, maybe.

1. Hiring is by far the most stressful, unpredictable, career-destroying part of a manager's job. And that's as an employee, if that's your business (founder, entrepreneur) you're scared shitless that a mistake may plain and simple ruin your business, and you along with it (not just financially, the stakes are much higher when it's your company).

So the 'soft' questions are attempts to weed out 'problems'. Get this through your head: when interviewing, experienced managers are not "selecting the best" but rather "avoiding the worst". And these questions... they're crapshots in the dark — “how the hell am I supposed to know if this person is OK/normal or a piece of work?” It's even more blurry from the interviewer's side. So they just try to get a 'feel' for it, intuitively.

Your answer? It does not really matter (specifics, context, etc). The real question is: are you 'normal'? Are you honest / reliable / well-adjusted / not too weird / not too aggressive / not too whatever makes life difficult for everyone (starting with you). It's really just that. (anyone who claims drawing psych profiles from interviews is basically BS'ing or a trained clinical psychologist, and don't fall for HR stuff, they're so full of their 'methods' because they know it's just super-human to judge people accurately).

2. What are the risks of a bad hire? Well, whatever they are, you are responsible if you signed that person in. You, the manager, will face the consequences — it's your team, your doing, your mistake. HR, if it exists, is usually just there to fit some bean counter + legal requirements. They won't feel the heat. You will, daily.

People lose their job over bad hires. They fail their mission. It's a stupidly high-stake decision given what little means are at their disposal — which is why some companies begin to think about it and adopt really different processes where they onboard you progressively and judge in very real terms, real work, real collaboration, if you're a fit or not.

3. The ugly truth of hiring is that we hire the people we like. Period. Full stop.

We hire the people we like. It's proven by countless psych studies. Whether you're aware of that or not does not make a difference — you can only select for what you think is right, and what is right is: 1. candidate can do the job and 2. I (thus others) can work with candidate on a daily basis. This kind of sentiment is not about skill, history, it's about being able to share a cup of coffee without feeling awkward, being able to disagree about a technical point and still come out together as a team on the other side once a decision's been made by whoever's in charge — might be none of you in the interview room, c-execs and whatnot.

So as a candidate, the worst answers you can give are anything that doesn't help to ease your interviewer's fears. Anything that doesn't tell them in so many words: "don't worry, rest assured I keep my cool, I'm reasonably balanced, I don't hit people or yell, I won't ruin your company/division/team." That's really all we can try to ask before the fact. So whatever the question —hard, soft— ask yourself: what are they afraid of? And your answer should simply solve for that. It's that simple. Convince me I'm not making a mistake by taking you in. Convince me I'm not a fool for trusting you.

If you pass in that regard, and your skills match the job, then you'll get hired — unless someone had a better human contact with the interviewer(s), in which case skills don't matter much, it's all about feeling comfortable with each other.

Remember this, a famous saying in management / entrepreneur circles: “You can always train someone (to meet whatever skill is required), but you can't change them (personality likely won't change).” Hence why “we hire a person, not a profile.”

Most managers would rather hire someone really nice and train them for 3 months before they're operational, rather than make a bet on a weirdo — whatever their expertise. The obnoxious genius is just about the worst choice you can make, whereas a great personality will always be an asset provided we can elevate their skill, and/or pay them less until they acquire the desired skillset.

4. About 'honesty'. Honesty isn't sarcasm: nobody expects you to marry the company, not even the interviewer thinks that for themselves (and founders / entrepreneurs are not clueless about job hoping these days). The '5 years' question isn't about that. It's precisely screening for the "great personality but training required" cases: if we hire you, will you be willing to evolve, to learn, to get better and meet our needs, our standards of quality?

Thus anything that says: "I see myself getting better" is a good answer. Anything that says: "I don't care / I just do this to eat and pay the bills / I have no interest whatsoever in improving myself or my work" will get you rejected (unless that's what they're looking for, to exploit you until you burn out, in which case you should see yourself to the door for your own sake).

Just my 2cts, from a management / consulting standpoint.

Remember: those people on the other side of the table have much, much more at stake than you or any candidate; you may get hired or not (so you either win a job or lose nothing) while they risk losing their own job / mission and the upside if they succeed is only to continue said mission with no perturbation. It's a much more daunting proposition for them, and yet they have to go through it and ultimately make a choice. If they take too long, budget might slip through their hands. It's a jungle for managers out there.

____

Bonus: Now let me tell you what's even worse to go through than a bad hire as a manager: firing someone. Some people literally fall in depression over this. Quit their job, even. It's a drag. It's really hard. You can't imagine how horrible it feels unless you've been there. Hence why you'd rather do it as little as humanly possible, and that means not screwing up the hiring process, which itself is very much imperfect...

I hope this gives you confidence that, however you want to see it, you very much have the easy part as a candidate. There are very few bad answers if you're honest enough about who you are (again, specifics, contexts, made-up stories, who cares as long as it tells the truth about you), which is the whole point. Know this: "courage" etymologically means "telling your truth with all your heart". It's about vulnerability. Courageous people, who know to show some vulnerability, are those we can trust because we can 'feel' them, for real, we know who they are. The "mistakes" question is partly just that: tell us you're human. Tell us you make mistakes. Tell us you learn from those. Tell us you didn't know better, not always, but you know more today than you did yesterday. Then, we can relate. We can trust you with our mistakes. We can grow together. We can count on you to support us.

And I know, I know it's not like that in every company, far from it. But it should. And there are plenty of very 'normal' people like that. They may not have the words to spell it like I do here — I just read a lot so I have these words now, from much smarter / more experienced people. Now, so do you.

If you go into interviews thinking "I'll reassure them, I'll show them they can trust me, because I'm worth it, because I'm reliable, because people can count on me, because fuck I'm likeable!" then I assure you: you're 50% in already. Compared to all the others who will try to hide who they are, in fear that they might not get liked, well guess what: don't know, don't care, won't take a chance. Next.

All the world needs is you at your best, you becoming better, growing, sharing, caring, empowering. These are the true rock stars. And make no mistake: nobody's born this way. All those who became that pretty much engineered it. It's the truth in "fake it 'till you make it", it's not actually fake but rather "play the part as best you can", i.e. elevate yourself to this ideal vision of you you have in mind. Before you know it, it's not a vision anymore, it's become real, the real you. Great managers and entrepreneurs know that, they only wish you knew it too, so we can start working together tomorrow. Today. Yesterday. Where have you been all this time without us? ; )

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#69
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reads almost identical to the rationales against hiring women from past decades. Women did not fit in with the male teams; ingrained misogyny was so common. And yes, they didn't behave the same, and had special needs (they were still expected to be mothers, needed separate toilets installed, customs like having the boss over for dinner prepared by wife didn't work, weekend golf and the bloke talk was unthinkable…

> ingrained misogyny was so common Was? I wouldn't call it misogyny, because it isn't out of hate but out of the unique social dynamics between genders, but absolutely nothing has changed except one thing: it's now politically incorrect and against the rules to actually say what you think/feel, so everyone hides it. Men and women still don't work well together. The attraction dynamics between them still overpower any…

> Men and women still don't work well together. The attraction dynamics between them still overpower any attempts at keeping things professional. The social differences are still all there.

This sentiment is very strange to me, coming from an IT company with lots of both men and women co-workers. Of course there is sometimes sexual attraction at work, as there probably is for any gay colleagues. Maybe it sometimes even causes tensions. But it is in no way 'overpowering' the ability to work well together, as team members, as managers or as subordinates.

There are many social dynamics that complicate pure professionalism. Feelings of attraction are nothing compared to ego or to the desire of climbing the ladder at any price, in my experience.

Later edit:

> As a proud owner of an ADHD brain, I don't understand the victimhood narrative at all. If someone doesn't want to work with me because I feel "weird" to them, why would I want to work with them? Why should they be forced to work with me? Who says I'm entitled to a job? Who says they owe me anything?

In our society, work is essentially the only possibility of leading a decent life (assuming you're not born rich, of course). As such, the right to work for any group must be protected by the state. Historically, blocking the right to work has been a favorite tactic against hated groups - black people, gay people, trans people are the most recent examples.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#70
post #67
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience interviews are less effective with students because they rarely have relevant experience to talk about. At the mid level and above tests and technical questions become less useful, but they can talk about meaningful past projects. I don’t know of anything else that’s predictive without weeding great people out. PS: It’s odd, but I suspect a random process may actually work better because the great pe…

>PS: It’s odd, but I suspect a random process may actually work better because the great people actively looking for jobs are likely to be bad at getting them. Somebody should almost build a toy startup around that random process eg Chatroulette for hiring. that might make sense.

However you would either need a great process for quickly terminating bad hires or keep this strategy very secret. Otherwise word spreads and your hiring pool quickly turns from "random" to "every freeloader in the industry".
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