Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California? • Hacker News Board

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#141

Post by bobthepanda » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 10:43 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #115

bobthepanda wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Katrina and Harvey showed that at best, evacuating cities with highways is an extremely long, drawn out process that will most likely leave the most poor and destitute (who don't have cars) totally stranded.

Yes. Basically you can't rapidly evacuate cities. Maybe highways help a bit but, if you can barely handle commuter traffic on a given workday, you're certainly not going to completely and quickly evacuate a city if there's some threat--and that's before you even get to the issue of people who don't own cars. So the idea that highways would be useful if there were an imminent threat of nuclear attack looks pretty sill…

It depends on how quickly and how far you need people to evacuate.

Lower Manhattan on 9/11 was evacuated mostly by foot and sea, with over half a million evacuated by boat alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_response_following_Se...

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#142

Post by malandrew » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 10:45 PM UTC

wwweston wrote: post #70

pxeboot wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people managing these projects are often hired based on political connections, not expertise. And cost overruns usually lead to higher profits, so there is little incentive to keep costs down.

While I’m always a fan of remembering that incentives matter (and believe that some degree citizen attention is a price for a well-functioning government), I would think that a forum full of software engineers could think of other reasons projects go over budget than graft.

> I would think that a forum full of software engineers could think of other reasons projects go over budget than graft.

We're not talking about projects in the private domain. We're talking about government projects. Look at the Obamacare website boondoggle. Or the recent lack of backups in Baltimore when hit with ransomware. When it's a government project, it's very fair to consider graft and corruption as the primary causes, especially as they often lead to favoring incompetent people in charge of executing the project.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#143

Post by slededit » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 11:03 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #140

slededit wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't completely solve the problem, but it would be much harder to evacuate the cities without the highway system in place.

Rail has upper capacity in the ranges of 60-90k passengers per hour, whereas car lanes are in the range of 2-3K passengers per hour in free flowing conditions. Granted that 60-90K figure doesn't involve people trying to shove furniture, pets etc. into their vehicles, but you could move quite a lot more with rail.

Rail is also used as part of the evacuation, but most people will want their car so they can carry enough supplies to last for the evacuation period. In fact one of the most egregious aspects of the Katrina disaster was New Orleans explicitly told Amtrak their trains were unnecessary [1].

>"We offered the city the opportunity to take evacuees out of harm's way," said Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black. "The city declined."

[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09...

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#144

Post by yellowapple » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 11:36 PM UTC

andy_ppp wrote: post #74

jedberg wrote: post #39

The California HSR has a lot of problems not matched in Taiwan. Firstly, once you get from San Jose to Bakersfield, then what? We don't have good public transit in LA, much less to Bakersfield. But even if the train went all the way to Union Station in Los Angeles, you'd still need to rent a car to get anywhere useful, or take Uber/Lyft. And same thing on the other end. What happens when you get to San Jose? You stil…

There really is no reason picking up a rental needs to be as time consuming as it is (could be dropped off like an Uber near to the station) and I’m amazed there isn’t a version of Uber that combines short hops from public transport somewhere timed for when the train arrives. These problems are actually opportunities in my opinion, I’m surprised Uber isn’t onto them...

If you place the reservation ahead-of-time, it doesn't take that long at the desk (besides the line, if there is one). Sure, it could be faster, but I've rented plenty of cars from a lot of different companies (with City Rent-A-Car being my preference in SF, and Enterprise everywhere else) and it's pretty tolerable.

Hell, my first ever car rental (to go from DC to Harrisburg because that leg of my flight got cancelled) was a walk-in with Hertz, and the slowest part was picking out a car.

Re: getting to the car in the first place, just about every airport I've been to has a bunch of rental agencies onsite (either walkable or via a shuttle bus), and I suspect HSR stations would be no different.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#145

Post by atomi » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 12:46 AM UTC

narrator wrote: post #26

I think it's because in the U.S absolutely anyone can tie up this stuff in the court systems for years. There are a lot of environmentalists who have been working overtime to stop this thing. For example: https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/10/24/high-speed-rail-l... . There are seven environmental lawsuits against this thing. How much do you think the legal bills are? There will likely be many more. Edit: There are…

On the other hand funding for the high speed rail is frequently used as a political football. https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/02/19/feds-cancel-hig...

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#146

Post by triceratops » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 12:59 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #119

chongli wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these environmental lawsuits really about protecting the environment (fighting climate change) or are they NIMBY lawsuits taking advantage of environmental laws/ordinances? In general, I would expect environmentalists to be among the major proponents of high speed rail, with the goal of getting more cars off the freeways. This calls to mind the Faculty of Environment at my university, whose primary focus is on th…

> Are these environmental lawsuits really about protecting the environment (fighting climate change) “Protecting the environment” isn’t “fighting climate change.” Regardless of one’s position on the effects of CO2, that’s like suggesting that ensuring health should be entirely about how to prevent influenza. Protecting the environment includes protecting habit, stopping (actual, toxic) pollution. Climate change isn’t…

> the audacity to think that the climate is changing because of humans.

I don't understand why that's "audacity". Climate change doesn't happen only due to geological and astronomical cycles. Organisms living on the earth have managed to change the composition of the atmosphere in the past.[1]

> Climate change is being used at an almost religious level

It's funny you describe it as "religious". Religion usually demands faith and doesn't require proof. There's plenty of evidence supporting anthropogenic climate change. Whereas deniers toss out handwavey statements like "the climate has always been changing" or conspiracy theories involving academic corruption. Who's really being religious about climate change?

> Heresy is expected to be punished here

A community that prizes intellectual curiosity will take a dim view of baseless denial of scientific consensus. You need proof.

> caring about the environment can be independent of the climate change gospel.

What are some examples of that?

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#147

Post by SamReidHughes » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 1:08 AM UTC

phlakaton wrote: post #136

SamReidHughes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Californians voted for the high speed rail project in a ballot initiative.

Would they have if it had been, say, a $29B proposition instead of a $9B one, and not to be completed until all the baby boomers were 90+ years old? This project has been facing stiff headwinds from the moment it began. If we had that vote again, knowing what we know now, I doubt it would pass.

Agreed. I was always against it, because I knew it would play out this way :-). I’d rather force the TSA to have an SLA.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#148

Post by webninja » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:34 AM UTC

narrator wrote: post #26

I think it's because in the U.S absolutely anyone can tie up this stuff in the court systems for years. There are a lot of environmentalists who have been working overtime to stop this thing. For example: https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/10/24/high-speed-rail-l... . There are seven environmental lawsuits against this thing. How much do you think the legal bills are? There will likely be many more. Edit: There are…

Maybe courts need to move faster?

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#149

Post by flukus » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 3:44 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #119

chongli wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these environmental lawsuits really about protecting the environment (fighting climate change) or are they NIMBY lawsuits taking advantage of environmental laws/ordinances? In general, I would expect environmentalists to be among the major proponents of high speed rail, with the goal of getting more cars off the freeways. This calls to mind the Faculty of Environment at my university, whose primary focus is on th…

> Are these environmental lawsuits really about protecting the environment (fighting climate change) “Protecting the environment” isn’t “fighting climate change.” Regardless of one’s position on the effects of CO2, that’s like suggesting that ensuring health should be entirely about how to prevent influenza. Protecting the environment includes protecting habit, stopping (actual, toxic) pollution. Climate change isn’t…

> Climate change is being used at an almost religious level to justify pretty much anything climate activists deem necessary — regardless of any unintended (or subversively intended) consequences.

Such as? Apart from some investment in renewables and more fuel efficient cars climate change activists haven't exactly achieved much.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#150

Post by MrMorden » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 5:09 AM UTC

mch82 wrote: post #103

MrMorden wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charging for parking can fix that problem now.

How? Time would be needed to make an alternative transit option available. Are you aware the city (and private lots) already charge for parking?

If the city was charging enough for parking, every block would have at least one free space. If 1/3 of traffic is people looking for parking, they're not charging enough.