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Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

perell.com

121–130 of 234 posts

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#121
post #2

> Why did Boeing buy McDonnell-Douglas? Because the airplane manufacturing industry is consolidating, and Boeing is pursuing profit at the expense of human lives. Was it really necessary to add the second part to explain why the merger occured? 'industry is consolidating' seems reason enough. The mixing of explanation with moralism in every sentence is grating. Put the moralism and ethics in it's own paragraph so we…

Though perhaps not the case, it sounds to me like you're saying "let's not consider the morality of the situation".

Moving it to a later part of the text is a great way to get people to ignore it.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#122
Engineers create value, management is a tax on that value. And when management takes over a company culture the next stop is typically bankruptcy as management wont stop until all value is extracted into their pockets. American corporate history is littered with examples.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#123

You see this at startups too, middle eng management were actual engineers and as the startup grows career managers creep in and skew the alignment of the engineering departments away from engineering solutions, the “product” they make, to problems they understand instead, political jockeying, manipulation, appeasing the LCD and the next managerial rung above them.

I’ve also had the misfortune of working with an early startup that as soon as it got a series A hired a team of career managers on board.

The product plummeted soon after, product market fit got lost as the direction became more and more political and by the end, the ones that came out on top and ready to move to their next venture were the managers that managed to tick their measurements and KPIs even though they were totally disconnected from the operational space.

But, they do wield weapons that us engineers often don’t have the time not desire to sharpen...

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#124
post #2

> Why did Boeing buy McDonnell-Douglas? Because the airplane manufacturing industry is consolidating, and Boeing is pursuing profit at the expense of human lives. Was it really necessary to add the second part to explain why the merger occured? 'industry is consolidating' seems reason enough. The mixing of explanation with moralism in every sentence is grating. Put the moralism and ethics in it's own paragraph so we…

An excellent point, I start to lose interest when reading conflation of fact and opinion as well. You know, it's comments like this that make me appreciate this community that much more.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#125
post #110

I don't flag articles but this is one that I would flag. Why? It's typical HN 'red meat'. Well presented and (seemingly) well written and thoughtful. But the writer not only has no expertise (he did research?) but offers no backup (other than things that other news outlets have written) for most if not all of his statements. Now it's on thing if you are a major news outlet (NYT, WSJ or online well know publication) a…

Couldn’t agree more. This is a rambling mess of an article which strings together past commentary on Boeing’s history and the 737 Max without making a coherent point.

Furthermore, the author also gets a number of things wrong about his research, and also presents statements as pure fact which are purely false.

Here are three examples I pulled out—in order from minor to argument-disqualifying.

1. The author cites innovation on the 787 as having electrically operated systems in place of hydraulics. He meant to say pneumatics. The 787 does not have an engine air-bleed system, using solid state electric systems to power the aforementioned components instead of the system of valves and ducts which manage the flow of high pressure air coming off the engine, as is the norm on other aircraft.

2. The author sites engines being outsourced historically because of a natural difference in engineering expertise between engine and airframe. While engine and airframe engineering are different domains, the real reason airframe manufacturers don’t make engines and vise-versa is entirely due to the Air Mail Act of 1934. I suggest the OP research the United Aircraft and Transport Corporation.

3. The OP’s central argument of cost control, and particularly outsourcing, as being a central driver to engineering problems with the MAX is hindered when he cites example and supporting arguments primarily about the 787 program.

Yes, cost control is an overarching issue and one that is being investigated vigorously, and 787’s level of airframe outsourcing has been a key problem to that particular program’s profitability.

However, the author fails to understand that the outsourcing he talks about is made at the program level. Citing the 787 as being representative of Boeing as a whole is spurious. The author also fails to understand how outsourcing effects engineering both at Boeing and down the supply chain.

In truth, the level of outsourcing on the MAX is largely no different than on the NG. (The previous model 737 that has been flying safely for decades, which went into service 2 years before the MD-Boeing merger.) It has been common since the advent of the jet age for there to be separate suppliers for engines and components—i.e landing gear or avionics. This does not mean innovation and engineering expertise is past over the fence—-airplanes are in fact built on strong partnerships between firms, and that includes partnerships between engineers. This has always been how the industry works.

Now, tying this back to my 3rd example: The 787 supply chain problems the OP sites are in regards to final assembly of fuselage and wing structures — this is a specific area in which one could argue the 787 went overboard in outsourcing. This, of course, has nothing to do with MCAS—a piece of flight control software—nor the AOA vanes that feed it. Flight control systems, sensors, and vanes are typically outsourced, as they are on the 777, 767, 777, and 747 (all of which engineered and built before the merger.)

...

If we really want to add value to the conversation about Boeing’s culture, the 737 MAX, and engineering aircraft—then let’s please build some knowledge first about how aircraft systems are actually engineered.

Disclaiming that nothing can be definitively said about the MCAS crashes until all the investigations are complete and known, I strongly believe the issue is not a software failure but a systems failure, and particularly, a failure in the management of the safety classification and assessment process.

There is also the matter that the 737 is a very old program. Beyond the argument that it was a mistake to try to modernize a 1967 design and architecture a 3rd time, there is also the problem that the 737MAX doesn’t necessarily adhere to current engineering standards for safety assessment—especially at the systems level. This is because the 737MAX was engineered under the authority of the original 737 certification.

For aerospace engineers working in industry, it would be useful to map what we know about MCAS and the 737MAX against the requirements outlined in DO-178C and, especially, ARP-4754. Unfortunately, the 737MAX doesn’t subscribe fully to ARP-4754 methodology, since it’s a continuation of the program certified in 1967 and not a new type.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#126
post #30

> In the case of information technology-related manufacturing, research, development, and marketing are the most profitable areas to specialize. Fabricating the units and linking critical components is a low-margin race to the bottom. Inspired by this theory, companies like Boeing aim to specialize in high-margin activities and outsource the rest. This is the core point which the author seems to be trying to make, th…

But that race to the bottom.. Are your eyes as a company. You see improvement potential, you know when a method has reached its peak and innovation is necessary for a leap. Anyone can do that iterative grind towards perfection ?

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#127
post #2

> Why did Boeing buy McDonnell-Douglas? Because the airplane manufacturing industry is consolidating, and Boeing is pursuing profit at the expense of human lives. Was it really necessary to add the second part to explain why the merger occured? 'industry is consolidating' seems reason enough. The mixing of explanation with moralism in every sentence is grating. Put the moralism and ethics in it's own paragraph so we…

It's a true statement, though. They decided to move away from the safety conscious approach they had taken in the past.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#128

I don't understand how this was a software failure. From everything I've ever read about this issue, including this piece, the failure seems very much like a model & design failure. It seems like a systems & human factors engineering failure. Not a software failure.

Well, if you ask why only once, then it's a software failure - a system with a serious amount of control authority can fail catastrophically if just one hardware sensor fails. Safety critical software like this must account for hardware failures. But there are many many more whys you need to ask before you get the full picture.

I wish some of the engineers that dropped out over this could speak up.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you look at long term focused companies like Amazon, which is creating all kinds of value without bowing down to short term market analysts. Had Boeing looked beyond the immediate future and planned to upgrade the 737 frame, or make a new one so it could support the much larger engines, they wouldn't be in this situation. But short term costs and profits, outsourcing and negligence is running the company. Brea…

If Boeing hadn't subscribed to the view that pilots were an inconvenient expense to be slowly dispensed with with ever more "sophisticated" automation like MCAS they also wouldn't be in this situation. It's uncomfortable to think about but a management fashion that silicon valley helped promulgate killed those 600 people.

Boeing didn’t create the MCAS system because they thought it was a superior design or a labor saving mechanism. They did it to compensate for bad design of the physical plane.
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