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Andrew Yang's ideas on automation and mass unemployment are not based in reality

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Re: Andrew Yang's ideas on automation and mass unemployment are not based in reality

#91
“You're creating a slippery slide transfer straight into socialism”

This seems to beg the question: "Would Amazon be less successful if it paid a living wage to those who labor in its warehouses and those who work to manufacture the products it sells?"

Re: Andrew Yang's ideas on automation and mass unemployment are not based in reality

#92
And therein lies the real problem with Yang’s outlook. It’s not just unrealistic. It’s lazy.

And this is why Yang is the most prescient of any of the candidates. He looked at the problem, broke it down into its basic components, extrapolated what was going to happen, and found the most straightforward answer (UBI) from the large search space of possible solutions. You know, like a computer programmer would.

So I fundamentally disagree with the article for the following reasons:

* If I had a budget of a few million dollars and a small team of geeks like me, I could write a (non-general) AI myself in 2-10 years that would pass the Turing test in any specific area, a bit Like IBM's Watson. And I'm nobody. The reason this won't happen is that I don't have the social proof (I haven't won the internet lottery or proceeded through the graduate level accolades or submitted papers so anyone would listen to me) so I'll likely spend the rest of my life making rent instead of making any meaningful contribution to society. And there are a million software developers around the world just like me. And a million architects who will never design a building. And a million biologists who will never cure a disease. This is the great tragedy of the commons of our time, that creates the underemployment that contributes to the wealth inequality that is the one thing holding AI back. You know, the very thing that Yang is trying to solve with UBI.

* I agree that shortsighted trade policies started by Reagan in the 80s with his "I'm from the government and am here to help" deregulation anti-pattern, exacerbated by Clinton with NAFTA, and beaten like a dead horse with George W Bush's offshoring/tax cut for the wealthy blue pill orgy, is the second biggest reason that we may have passed the point of no return on preserving (at least American) jobs. But half the US population won't concede this point or think outside the box for empathetic solutions, so I don't predict that this will be fixed before the singularity. It's a moot point now.

* I predict that the tech industry will go the wrong direction with AI, in roughly this order: industry invests heavily in cybersecurity and profit-driven artificial intelligence research to better exploit users by leveraging their shopping addictions, social/mobile bubble pops as independent developers are undermined further by receiving an ever-smaller slice of the pie, a global recession rivaling the dotcom crash and housing bubble pop hits which halts progress in social causes similarly to what happened during the lost decade of the 2000s, the US doubles down on trying every wrong thing before being forced to do the right thing (further tax cuts for the wealthy, privatization of remaining government services, no UBI because there is no money for that, further regression into service industry feudalism), sometime between 2025 and 2030 the world comes out of recession but now all money passes through an online gatekeeper (whatever follows Amazon) as the world transitions from sovereign nations to having its monetary policy determined by corporations, Stockholm syndrome far exceeding the Trump phenomenom grips the world in luddite-inspired rejection of magic technologies like AI, climate change falls from the forefront of concerns as simple human incursion into every last wild place on Earth creates an instability in civilization due to having so many insurrection cells crossing national boundaries that civic discourse gives way to political infighting and canabalistic government policy, a third world war or dystopian new world order or singularity hit all at about the same time between 2040 and 2050 so that only the rich and powerful have oracle-level AI technology and live in gated communities while the world burns, the masses find that they still need food in VR and then rise up and something happens which unfortunately can't really be predicted past this point.

I really hope that I'm wrong. But the last 20 years have been so bizarre compared to what I thought was going to happen while watching the Matrix in 1999 that I'd argue that we're already living in the early stages of dystopia. So I think we have a year or two left before the next planned recession takes the choice away from us. If even Hacker News is skeptical of the things that Yang is suggesting, then we are well and truly hosed.

Re: Andrew Yang's ideas on automation and mass unemployment are not based in reality

#93

I generally favor UBI because it's basically wealth transfer from the wealthy to the less wealthy and I support those policies. UBI seems like a poor response to the shifting nature of work. Yang himself implies that automation will "come for" some groups before others. I.e. subsequent subsets of the population will lose 100% of their income. Increasing the income of everyone seems like a poor response. If we want to…

Yeah. I feel the same as you. On a macro scale distributing funds to middle and lower class is a net gain for the economy since I don't believe the trickle down effect works and those groups will spend the money and keep it flowing through the economy. It just makes sense to me that the economy is stimulated by demand instead of supply. However, I agree UBI seems to be going to people who may not need it. However, I…

> It just makes sense to me that the economy is stimulated by demand instead of supply.

Maybe my experience is atypical, but I've seen, over and over, hiring driven by either 1) we have more demand than we expected, or 2) we have good reason to expect more demand and should hire now to support that.

I've never seen "we have money, but no extra demand and no reason to expect any, so we better hire". "We got a tax cut but have nothing for extra workers to do—better hire anyway" said no business owner ever.

Which is to say I have no friggin' idea what supply-side is going on about. Yeah there's probably some hypothetical situation in which growth can be supply-constrained, but in the presence of demand that problem will fix itself pretty quickly, guaranteed. The opposite clearly isn't true at all.

Re: Andrew Yang's ideas on automation and mass unemployment are not based in reality

#94
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only we hadn't invented the printing press, scribes would still be making good wages. Somehow everybody found a job afterwards, though -- the economy adjusts with an increased supply of labor. UBI is a promising antidote for short term automation shocks, which Yang is also a proponent of.

>If only we hadn't invented the printing press The difference is that scribing was a limiting factor to new and expanded methods of communication. Removing this limit allowed industry to expand due to massive decreases in costs of communication and expansion into entirely new forms. A similar argument can be made for many of the usual purported counter examples against automation alarmism. Steam engines, combustion e…

It really is not different, and people of the time certainly made the same exact arguments against most of the inventions on your list. Whether it's caused by a cotton loom or an immigrant, there is something about having to learn how to do a new job that really sets people the wrong way.

The only difference is that we are getting closer to the same asymptote we have been approaching for centuries now, where human labor is less about supplying material property and more about providing human service. Sure, it is possible that within the next few decades all but the most highly skilled and educated workers will be displaced into a continuously growing service industry. A decent chunk of people are not cut out for making a living on human interaction, so this is where a base UBI makes a lot of sense. It does not, however, imply that the labor force as a whole will not have any work to do.

Re: Andrew Yang's ideas on automation and mass unemployment are not based in reality

#95
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, honestly I don't really understand the article's point. Is it that say McDonalds switching to electronic kiosks to order your burger is going to create as MANY tech jobs as it took away? Because that doesn't pass the smell test.

There were a slew of anti-yang articles that came out from the leftmost media sources immediately after the debate, owing to the fact that Yang made Elizabeth Warren look unprepared in her answer about job loss. Andrew Yang, snake oil salesman: https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/10/andrew-yang-tech-entr... Is Yang doing more harm than good to the case for universal income?: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/20…

I watched the debate, and I'm not a big Warren fan, but it most definitely wasn't my impression that Yang won that argument or made her look unprepared. If anything I would give the point to Warren for citing data arguing that automation to date has had significantly less impact than sending jobs to China and Mexico.

I think Yang has a solid argument that automation is a considerable job risk in the future, but we don't know how long that will take. I really doubt truckers are going to be obsolete so quickly. The tech will be good enough no doubt, but there's going to be a kerfuffle that'll slow it down, especially if you get a pro union candidate like Sanders.

I think Yang is a good talker, charismatic, and smart, but I don't buy his urgency... yet. That being said, I think he'd make a good candidate (personally prefer Bernie, but would happily accept Yang).

No doubt a lot of media is trying to tank him (we see this with Bernie constantly), which just makes it really hard to sort the reality from the BS and polarizes people further.

Re: Andrew Yang's ideas on automation and mass unemployment are not based in reality

#96

This complaint about robots and AI taking all our jobs is hundreds of years old. Still hasn't happened. US is at record levels of employment. Humans are terrible at predicting the future. Let's just wait and see and react when it actually happens. My guess... there will be plenty of jobs for humans for thousands of years to come. Ever since the industrial revolution jobs have gone by the wayside. We no longer have wa…

    const capital = () => [capital(), capital()]
Humans are an implementation detail in that scheme.

Economic power (the ability to extract, move and transform resources to perpetuate the economy) is gradually moving from people to capital. At some point in the future, it will not make sense for the industry to keep on feeding people, and people won’t have any power left to do something about it.

The jobs you mention are peripheral things meant to keep meatware happy while it is still economically relevant.

There are people who are starving today, whose will to live and imagination is as strong as yours. It turns out they are not economically relevant, and thus we let them die. I don’t expect an automated industry to care more about about us than we do about the unfortunate folks I just mentioned.

Re: Andrew Yang's ideas on automation and mass unemployment are not based in reality

#97
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were a slew of anti-yang articles that came out from the leftmost media sources immediately after the debate, owing to the fact that Yang made Elizabeth Warren look unprepared in her answer about job loss. Andrew Yang, snake oil salesman: https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/10/andrew-yang-tech-entr... Is Yang doing more harm than good to the case for universal income?: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/20…

National Review a leftmost media source?

Or Politico, or Slate. When I hear "leftmost" I'm thinking like, Jacobin or Chapo

Re: Andrew Yang's ideas on automation and mass unemployment are not based in reality

#98
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because UBI is the only welfare system that can't be gamed. How do you identify "workers who worked or trained for a job that has been automated away"? Non-universal welfare wastes a lot of resources on conflict between potential welfare recipients and the state, and it inevitably mis-categorizes people, which causes suffering either directly when the "deserving" are denied it, or via resentment when the "undeserving…

>Non-universal welfare wastes a lot of resources It seems like you're saying that UBI is more efficient we don't need spend resources on targeting it. I 100% agree for the general case of wealth transfer. I think it's very weak for addressing specific job losses. So, let's say we have 100 people and 10 of them lost their jobs to automation but we don't know which. One option is the "Yang plan" of $12 a year ($1 a mon…

I always assumed part or perhaps most of the funding would come from flattening the tax system.

Re: Andrew Yang's ideas on automation and mass unemployment are not based in reality

#99
Andrew Yang is the Trump of tech. And his brand of politics is more a dangerous threat to democracy than Trump’s is. His messaging and policies are just like Trump’s in that they’re dumbed down, optimized for social media likes and subtly enforce a world view where extreme income inequality is inevitable so let’s make the best of it. AI/tech isn’t going to kill the middle class by itself. This destruction will be assisted by technocracy propagandists like Yang.

Re: Andrew Yang's ideas on automation and mass unemployment are not based in reality

#100
post #3

In a 2018 paper, UC–Berkeley sociologist Steve Viscelli suggested that in the most likely scenario, long-haul truckers, who tend to make middle-class wages, will be replaced by poorly paid drivers tasked with steering autonomous vehicles through tricky city streets, which onboard navigation systems handle less well than highways. That’s not all jobs disappearing. It’s jobs changing. I'm not sure if the author is clai…

First, jobs are work in that they’re emotionally boring repetitive tasks the bean counters have whittled down into cost saving nonsense. So fuck them: https://aeon.co/essays/what-if-jobs-are-not-the-solution-but... Second, there is a ton of work out there our society likes to ignore the value of because it’s not shallow novelty: https://aeon.co/essays/the-key-to-jobs-in-the-future-is-not-... And really if automation…

Applying ethical standards to chimps seems weird. By what measure did they become more ethical?
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