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Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

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Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan imports construction workers from much poorer Southeast Asian countries. http://www.cedaw.org.tw/en/upload/media/Capacity%20Building/...

US cannot do that either (for political reasons). The optics aren't great, "murrican jobs" and all

Large parts of your agricultural industry already are.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#42
I think any talk about HSRs in the US should be able to explain US highways. American highway system is arguably one of the best in the world - it's also a gigantic government project, and it's constantly being extended.

So how come America, with its proven track record of great highways, is totally impotent with high speed rails? The answer can't be just "American government doesn't work" or "the country is too big." Irrational mistrust against railways?

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#43
post #3

California is terrible at managing infrastructure projects.

It's not just California, it's every state and every city in the US. People have an aversion to public works projects often crying about taxes or how the service is useless or not good enough. We have a political system where one major party (out of two) decries any public spending that might help people who aren't millionaires/billionaires/corporations. Is it any wonder when you have evil groups of people spending h…

Major highway and road projects in the US are often completed with minimal fuss. You don't really hear about these, because they go off smoothly. The difference may perhaps be that there's plenty of experience and precedent in doing these, both in government and industry, as road projects are constantly executed.

Major rail construction has basically been absent in the US for a generation or more. Does the lack of experience and support, combined with a general reluctance to bring in foreign expertise, explain the difference? Maybe. The Texas HSR project may be instructive, as it's bringing in a Japanese firm.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#44
post #42

I think any talk about HSRs in the US should be able to explain US highways. American highway system is arguably one of the best in the world - it's also a gigantic government project, and it's constantly being extended. So how come America, with its proven track record of great highways, is totally impotent with high speed rails? The answer can't be just "American government doesn't work" or "the country is too big.…

It’s because we already have highways and our car culture is hard to change. Highways were also originally built for national defense with the economic benefits as a secondary force. Defense projects traditionally get tons of funding in the US.

Convincing a generation that witnessed two world wars to back a massive defense project wasn’t difficult.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The total area of the state isn't too relevant, since California isn't exactly proposing to build HSR to Eureka or Redding. It's true that California's project is larger-scale, but by 2x: Taiwan has a single 200-mile HSR line, and California is trying to build a single 400-mile line.

How many potential riders live along each respective corridor? How many people want to travel between San Jose and Bakersfield vs Taipei and Kaohsiung? I’d guesstimate an order of magnitude lower as proposed; the California plan doesn’t make much sense to me without extending the line 100 miles further from Bakersfield to LA.

Well, the original proposal that voters passed was SF–LA, which has very large populations at both ends, and makes a bit more sense (this is also what I was counting as 400 miles). The (maybe temporary, maybe not) scale-back seems to be due to rapidly ballooning estimates of construction cost. I agree that a Merced–Bakersfield line is less compelling, to put it mildly.

Which points to what I think is the main issue, both here and with most other US transit projects: US rail construction costs are very high, even compared to other high-wage countries. If we could get subway and rail projects done at the per-mile costs that Japan, Denmark, France, or Germany manage, I think we'd both have more things already successfully built, and more public appetite to fund more.

There's some digging on that question on this blog: https://pedestrianobservations.com/construction-costs/

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#46
post #42

I think any talk about HSRs in the US should be able to explain US highways. American highway system is arguably one of the best in the world - it's also a gigantic government project, and it's constantly being extended. So how come America, with its proven track record of great highways, is totally impotent with high speed rails? The answer can't be just "American government doesn't work" or "the country is too big.…

Our collective experience with public transportation on rail is AmTrak, which is demonstrably bad compared to other country's rail systems.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#47
post #39

The California HSR has a lot of problems not matched in Taiwan. Firstly, once you get from San Jose to Bakersfield, then what? We don't have good public transit in LA, much less to Bakersfield. But even if the train went all the way to Union Station in Los Angeles, you'd still need to rent a car to get anywhere useful, or take Uber/Lyft. And same thing on the other end. What happens when you get to San Jose? You stil…

This argument just doesn't make sense. You can make the exact point about airports as well.

What's the point of an airport? It is hard to get there, you have to rent a car, parking is expensive, too much trafic, busses are not that often... etc... etc..

Build the train, and have stations close to downtown, while local government can start/extend local transportation as well.

Ideally you have both local and inter-urban rail at the same time, but if you don't, then you have to start somewhere. It is harder to build a major station, then several small tram station. Start with the harder part, and let the local government fill out the smaller parts.

The beauty of the train, that it can get very close to downtown, or even in the center of it with minimal disruption (if built underground). You just can't do that with an airport.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#48
post #47
post #39

The California HSR has a lot of problems not matched in Taiwan. Firstly, once you get from San Jose to Bakersfield, then what? We don't have good public transit in LA, much less to Bakersfield. But even if the train went all the way to Union Station in Los Angeles, you'd still need to rent a car to get anywhere useful, or take Uber/Lyft. And same thing on the other end. What happens when you get to San Jose? You stil…

This argument just doesn't make sense. You can make the exact point about airports as well. What's the point of an airport? It is hard to get there, you have to rent a car, parking is expensive, too much trafic, busses are not that often... etc... etc.. Build the train, and have stations close to downtown, while local government can start/extend local transportation as well. Ideally you have both local and inter-urba…

The airports are already there for longer flights, we just happen to use them for the short flights too. That's the main difference.

This train would be to replace a single short flight route.

Re: Taiwan managed to build high-speed rail. Why can't California?

#49
post #39

The California HSR has a lot of problems not matched in Taiwan. Firstly, once you get from San Jose to Bakersfield, then what? We don't have good public transit in LA, much less to Bakersfield. But even if the train went all the way to Union Station in Los Angeles, you'd still need to rent a car to get anywhere useful, or take Uber/Lyft. And same thing on the other end. What happens when you get to San Jose? You stil…

Could that not be a chicken and egg issue? There's no reason to build bus lines to a nonexistent train station. And without the attractive high-speed train option, who's going to take these buses in meantime? Sounds like the train could be a catalyst.
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