Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company • Hacker News Board

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#61

Post by vitaminCPP » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 5:05 PM UTC

cellu_cc wrote: post #9

While I appreciate the amount of effort the author put into writing this, Matt Stoller’s analysis of the Boeing situation remains the best I’ve found so far: https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/the-coming-boeing-bailout

This is short and excellent. Thanks for sharing.

I wish Mr. Stoller took more time on this:

> The Federal Aviation Administration, having outsourced much of its own regulatory capacity to Boeing, didn’t know what was going on, and Boeing didn’t tell airlines and pilots about the new and crucial safety procedures.

This seems like big deal to me.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#62

Post by PaulHoule » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

People forget the other purpose of outsourcing which is that it diffuses complaints from other countries that they are buying planes from dupolists and should do something about it because sweden, japan, and other countries that might develop and aircraft industry can point to some part of every Airbus and Boeing made in their country.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#63

Post by gaze » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 5:11 PM UTC

The headline is written as if this is the fault of the engineers :/

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#64

Post by bashallah » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 5:12 PM UTC

slededit wrote: post #57

brojonat wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boeing is pursuing profit at the expense of human lives To play devil's advocate, this isn't a moral statement. The author is saying this is true based on actual events.

I'm almost certain "expense of human lives" didn't come up as a factor on any of the merger pitch decks. Frankly its a huge leap to see that a merger of two successful and relatively safe aircraft manufacturers would be intentionally at the expense of human lives.

Nice of you to think facts only exist at the corporate level

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#65

Post by buddylw » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

slededit wrote: post #57

brojonat wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boeing is pursuing profit at the expense of human lives To play devil's advocate, this isn't a moral statement. The author is saying this is true based on actual events.

I'm almost certain "expense of human lives" didn't come up as a factor on any of the merger pitch decks. Frankly its a huge leap to see that a merger of two successful and relatively safe aircraft manufacturers would be intentionally at the expense of human lives.

If they aren't considering human lives in the process, that may be the real problem.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#66

Post by therockspush » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

desdiv wrote: post #34

hannasanarion wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing executive decision makers don't. They never fly commercial, they have private jets.

Interesting side note, Boeing does make private jets - the Boeing Business Jet family[0]. But Boeing executives doesn't fly on these, since they're too large for even CEOs. Boeing executives fly on one of the three Boeing owned Bombardier Challenger 650s [1][2][3]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Business_Jet [1] https://www.planelogger.com/Aircraft/Registration/N541BA/908... [2] https://www.planelogger.com/…

Former CEO James McNerney used to fly in the BBJ all the time. Sometimes he was the only passenger.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#67

Post by crishoj » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

cellu_cc wrote: post #9

While I appreciate the amount of effort the author put into writing this, Matt Stoller’s analysis of the Boeing situation remains the best I’ve found so far: https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/the-coming-boeing-bailout

Came here to post exactly this analysis. The engineers lost control of the company to the bean-counters.

> The key decision was, rather than fix the fundamental aerodynamic control problems caused by the new engine, to bandaid the existing 737 software, while pretending that flying the 737 Max was just like flying old ones. That way, airlines would be able to buy the plane and not have to retrain their pilots, as pilots must be re-certified any changed flight procedures but don’t have to be recertified for new models with unchanged flying qualities. Unfortunately, the aerodynamics of the 737 body didn’t fit with the Max’s bulkier engine, which was obvious during the first wind tunnel tests.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#68

Post by jorblumesea » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

I've often felt GE and other industrial conglomerates have similar issues as those brought up in the article. Too much focus on quarterly profits and investor payouts, obsession over stock prices and "wall street" metrics. Everyone talks about Japan or China stealing our industrial base but it often feels like we did it ourselves.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#69

Post by thatswrong0 » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #39

I don't understand how this was a software failure. From everything I've ever read about this issue, including this piece, the failure seems very much like a model & design failure. It seems like a systems & human factors engineering failure. Not a software failure.

Well, if you ask why only once, then it's a software failure - a system with a serious amount of control authority can fail catastrophically if just one hardware sensor fails. Safety critical software like this must account for hardware failures. But there are many many more whys you need to ask before you get the full picture.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#70

Post by jrockway » Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #39

I don't understand how this was a software failure. From everything I've ever read about this issue, including this piece, the failure seems very much like a model & design failure. It seems like a systems & human factors engineering failure. Not a software failure.

They should have written a program to determine the angle of attack without an angle of attack sensor. The fact that they couldn't means that there need to be more team-building exercises, websites blocked by the corporate firewall, and outsourcing!