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Awesome UI screenshots from applications running on Symbolics Lisp Machines

lispm.dyndns.org

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Re: Awesome UI screenshots from applications running on Symbolics Lisp Machines

#21

Post by gwern »

gnok wrote: post #14
gwern wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are suggesting that he give screenshots of copyrighted software a CC license? ....Right.

How is that different from say, a CC licensed photograph of a car or an iPhone?

I'm at -3 and you're at 9. I feel deeply ashamed on behalf of Hacker News for your aggressive ignorance of copyright law. Hacker News, you're usually better than this.

---

A screenshot is a document like a photograph or essay or article; it's not a physical object. Cars and iPhones are not copyrighted. Software and software UIs and documents mechanically reproducing them are.

Tell me, do you think the copyright on the text in a software UI just magically goes away because it's a screenshot? How about the icons? Or the fonts? Or any images? What if the software is displaying a photograph or book? Did you just discover a way to make anything under the sun public domain? (An amazing discovery!)

Tell me, do you and all your upvoters think you know better than Wikimedia Commons when it writes (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Screenshots) :

> Screenshots are subject to the copyright of the displayed work, may it be a video, television program, or a computer program.

Do you think you know better than the librarian who wrote http://web.archive.org/web/20080216021841/http://www.jiscleg... ? Or how about http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyright/faq.cgi#QID809 or http://lifehacker.com/193343/ask-the-law-geek--is-publishing... or any of a dozen links you could have found in seconds googling 'copyright screenshot'? Notice the only question is whether fair use will defend you when you infringe on copyright by making screenshots and not whether screenshots are copyrighted at all, because they are copyrighted.

Do you, in fact, have the slightest argument besides a specious analogy?

Re: Awesome UI screenshots from applications running on Symbolics Lisp Machines

#22

Post by gnok »

gwern wrote: post #21
gnok wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that different from say, a CC licensed photograph of a car or an iPhone?

I'm at -3 and you're at 9. I feel deeply ashamed on behalf of Hacker News for your aggressive ignorance of copyright law. Hacker News, you're usually better than this. --- A screenshot is a document like a photograph or essay or article; it's not a physical object. Cars and iPhones are not copyrighted. Software and software UIs and documents mechanically reproducing them are . Tell me, do you think the copyright on t…

I apologize if my question came off as presumptuous and/or snarky. My question was genuine. I assumed from the up-votes that my question's underlying basis was indeed correct.

Clearly, taking a photograph of an art work does not automatically create a copyright free version of the art. Nor does scanning a book.

Just to clarify: A photograph wherein a copyrighted image appears but is not the focus of the image might likely classify as fair use, I assume?

Modders, please upvote parent and downmod my previous comment.

Re: Awesome UI screenshots from applications running on Symbolics Lisp Machines

#23

Post by lispm »

mrbill wrote: post #17

I recently bought a MacIvory II board set with docs and install media and am awaiting the arrival of parts for the Quadra 700 that I'm going to host it in. I've got a Symbolics "fat" old-style keyboard that I'm going to make the USB adapter for, and then use that to run Genera over X on the LAN.

That works, but you should keep your MacIvory at arms length. The debugger will often pop up on the main console and not the X11 window Console.

Re: Awesome UI screenshots from applications running on Symbolics Lisp Machines

#24

Post by lispm »

rbanffy wrote: post #8
unwind wrote: post #2

Interesting, having read about the Symbolics machines for years in various hacker-centric history texts, but never actually seen what their interfaces were like, this certainly piqued my interest. However (s the dynds.org domain name hints) this is very likely hosted in someone's home, on (guessing) ADSL or so. It seems to be very much starved for bandwidth, at the moment ... I gave up, for now.

One day, when I finally learn VHDL, I'll make a compact Symbolics-compatible Lisp Machine. I have already done some research on what would be needed to build USB Symbolics/Space Cadet keyboards... Unfortunately, I doubt a keyboard without arrow keys would be very popular beyond a small group.

You can build keyboards with arrow keys. IIRC the keyboards from TI for their Explorer Lisp Machines had arrows, etc. Even with Genera you can use arrow keys. You can configure a new keyboard layout and use that for your keyboard. Genera can for example be used over X11 or on the MacIvory. There keyboards typically have arrows and Genera knows about them...

Re: Awesome UI screenshots from applications running on Symbolics Lisp Machines

#25

Post by gwern »

gnok wrote: post #22
gwern wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm at -3 and you're at 9. I feel deeply ashamed on behalf of Hacker News for your aggressive ignorance of copyright law. Hacker News, you're usually better than this. --- A screenshot is a document like a photograph or essay or article; it's not a physical object. Cars and iPhones are not copyrighted. Software and software UIs and documents mechanically reproducing them are . Tell me, do you think the copyright on t…

I apologize if my question came off as presumptuous and/or snarky. My question was genuine. I assumed from the up-votes that my question's underlying basis was indeed correct. Clearly, taking a photograph of an art work does not automatically create a copyright free version of the art. Nor does scanning a book. Just to clarify: A photograph wherein a copyrighted image appears but is not the focus of the image might l…

> Just to clarify: A photograph wherein a copyrighted image appears but is not the focus of the image might likely classify as fair use, I assume?

It might, but there you are getting into vagaries of fair use. Dialogue, music, trademarked goods - all these things can creep into a video or a photograph and taint it with derivativeness. (Is there a trademarked Coca-Cola prominent in your photograph? You may be in trouble. Is there a TV in the corner playing _The Simpsons_? Lessig gives an example where copyright-clearing a few seconds of that TV crippled a documentary.)

For example, a sculpture is copyrighted and photographs thereof derivatives & copyrighted, except in Germany which has specially granted the photographer protection: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_panorama

Is there a nifty Apple-designed good coughiPhonecough in the picture in question? Now you have to worry about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_design_right

Did you know buildings are copyrighted? http://www.wipo.int/sme/en/documents/ip_photography.htm#1.6 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_in_architecture_in_th...

Re: Awesome UI screenshots from applications running on Symbolics Lisp Machines

#26

Post by smartrevolution »

Rainer Joswig (the guy who hosts the screenshots) did live demos with his machines at the "5. Hamburg Lispers Meeting" in 2008 at my company's office. Here are some photos of the machines and the event http://www.flickr.com/photos/srichter/sets/72157605318306397...

The SLIME REPL is very much modeled after the Symbolics REPL. I guess Rainer can tell more about that. Check out the videos on his main site (sorry Rainer, this may increase traffic again. :) ). The most amazing part of his demo for me was, when he inspected a running Lisp process, changed the code and continued from there. The OS is (almost) completely written in Lisp, too...

Re: Awesome UI screenshots from applications running on Symbolics Lisp Machines

#27

Post by Natsu »

gwern wrote: post #25
gnok wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I apologize if my question came off as presumptuous and/or snarky. My question was genuine. I assumed from the up-votes that my question's underlying basis was indeed correct. Clearly, taking a photograph of an art work does not automatically create a copyright free version of the art. Nor does scanning a book. Just to clarify: A photograph wherein a copyrighted image appears but is not the focus of the image might l…

> Just to clarify: A photograph wherein a copyrighted image appears but is not the focus of the image might likely classify as fair use, I assume? It might, but there you are getting into vagaries of fair use. Dialogue, music, trademarked goods - all these things can creep into a video or a photograph and taint it with derivativeness. (Is there a trademarked Coca-Cola prominent in your photograph? You may be in troub…

Your point is well-taken, but I think that Symbolics is now defunct? Granted, the copyrights don't vanish, but who knows where they transferred to, if anywhere.

Re: Awesome UI screenshots from applications running on Symbolics Lisp Machines

#28

Post by gwern »

Natsu wrote: post #27
gwern wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just to clarify: A photograph wherein a copyrighted image appears but is not the focus of the image might likely classify as fair use, I assume? It might, but there you are getting into vagaries of fair use. Dialogue, music, trademarked goods - all these things can creep into a video or a photograph and taint it with derivativeness. (Is there a trademarked Coca-Cola prominent in your photograph? You may be in troub…

Your point is well-taken, but I think that Symbolics is now defunct? Granted, the copyrights don't vanish, but who knows where they transferred to, if anywhere.

To http://www.symbolics-dks.com/
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