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When Medical Debt Collectors Decide Who Gets Arrested

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Re: When Medical Debt Collectors Decide Who Gets Arrested

#131
post #108
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US you don't need a law degree to be a Supreme Court Judge. It's pretty common with elected positions - it's up to voters to make the decision.

I know sheriffs are elected too. I wonder if some rich person could just spend a bunch of money on ads with no qualifications when it comes to law enforcement and win in their county. Sounds like something a bored millionaire who retired early might do just for fun.

There was an issue a few years ago in Tulsa where the sheriff was deputizing political cronies with minimal training, and one of them,a man in his 70s, fatally shot someone.

https://nyti.ms/1aPwG91

Re: When Medical Debt Collectors Decide Who Gets Arrested

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why Medicare for all vs other reforms

Because for-profit healthcare is immoral, wasteful, and inevitably results in scenarios like the above. A Bismarck system (nonprofit govt sponsored insurance companies that all charge the same and are taken by all doctors) would be fine too, but that's not on the table in the US

[deleted]

Re: When Medical Debt Collectors Decide Who Gets Arrested

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop with this free market nonsense. This is healthcare, this is real lives. It’s not the same as choosing which burger joint to patronize, it’s life and death.

> This is healthcare, this is real lives. It’s not the same as choosing which burger joint to patronize, it’s life and death. We're not talking about the life and death part though. There are already laws requiring emergency rooms to see anyone who shows up. The question is how to pay for it, which is a matter of economics. Medical providers not being able to provide the total cost for a non-emergency procedure up-fr…

> Medical providers not being able to provide the total cost for a non-emergency procedure up-front but then expecting people to pay whatever price they make up after the fact is practically fraud. The fact that it leads to outrageous costs is entirely predictable.

I’d like to turn the question around and ask folks who believe that the healthcare problem is one of not enough market freedom: what’s an example of a country that gets a free market in medical care right, from your perspective?

We universal healthcare advocates have a couple of dozen examples lined up to support our perspective, what about from the other side?

Re: When Medical Debt Collectors Decide Who Gets Arrested

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why Medicare for all vs other reforms

Because for-profit healthcare is immoral, wasteful, and inevitably results in scenarios like the above. A Bismarck system (nonprofit govt sponsored insurance companies that all charge the same and are taken by all doctors) would be fine too, but that's not on the table in the US

I think the point was that there are multiple different reforms that are important, and why health care over another. What if there is a candidate that is for health care reform, but against something else you consider important, but there's another candidate that's for the other reform, but against health care reform? Or there is a candidate that is for health care reform but also for other things your are strongly against?

Re: When Medical Debt Collectors Decide Who Gets Arrested

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is healthcare, this is real lives. It’s not the same as choosing which burger joint to patronize, it’s life and death. We're not talking about the life and death part though. There are already laws requiring emergency rooms to see anyone who shows up. The question is how to pay for it, which is a matter of economics. Medical providers not being able to provide the total cost for a non-emergency procedure up-fr…

> Medical providers not being able to provide the total cost for a non-emergency procedure up-front but then expecting people to pay whatever price they make up after the fact is practically fraud. The fact that it leads to outrageous costs is entirely predictable. I’d like to turn the question around and ask folks who believe that the healthcare problem is one of not enough market freedom: what’s an example of a cou…

The Netherlands and Switzerland both have functioning private insurance systems. There are also several functioning hybrid systems, like Germany and Israel.

But the primary reason you don't see more successes is the lack of attempts. It's not as if there is a long list of countries with failed free market healthcare systems, either.

Re: When Medical Debt Collectors Decide Who Gets Arrested

#136
post #99
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know people in HN hate to talk about politics, but this is a political problem. People, please vote for medicare for all candidates, it might not affect your life now, but you don't know what the future holds for you.

Medicare for all is not a solution. The solution is make health insurance act like insurance. Health service provider needs to post their price like all services and products. They need to compete for our business.

Sure it is, as has been demonstrated in many, many countries.

Re: When Medical Debt Collectors Decide Who Gets Arrested

#137
post #68
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It theoretically doesn't, but practically speaking, you're talking about risk pools. Those work better when they're larger.

More important is that states can’t control immigration and cross-border trade, making a variety of policies infeasible or much more expensive, compared with the same implemented nationwide.

Immigration and cross-border trade is free in the EU, and yet healthcare is a member-state level issue. In India, healthcare is explicitly a state issue, not a Union issue.

Re: When Medical Debt Collectors Decide Who Gets Arrested

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about the poor people who only have one hospital nearby that might not accept their insurance? What about people who go to a hospital that's in their network, but it turns out one of the many doctors was not? The people who have a time critical illness who can't afford to do the whole Free Market thing right after a accident? All of these only apply to time-critical procedures. Otherwise you should be able to…

> Let's assume that emergency medicine should be provided by cities in the same way as other emergency services like fire companies. What's the argument for doing it that way for all medical services, including the ones that are not time sensitive and allow you plenty of time to shop around and choose the provider with the best combination of price, distance, scheduling availability, etc.? Because for a lot of people…

> Because for a lot of people, there is no real choice involved. If there's one hospital around for hundreds of miles, they realistically don't have the option to go to one further out when their job expects them to be available for work every single day.

Federal law requires employers to provide at least unpaid sick leave. That caps the premium a local hospital can charge over competitors at the loss of the day's wages and the travel costs, which are both dwarfed by the amount of money in medical expenses we're comparing them to for these bankruptcy-inducing procedures.

> Not to mention that requires every hospital to offer every service and to have every type of specialist for every type of disease.

Why would it require that? There are thousands of hospitals in the US. You don't need every hospital to do everything as long as there is some competition for any given thing.

And far away hospitals can provide competition even if people don't actually use them in practice. If it costs $1000 in travel and inconvenience to fly to another city for a procedure then people won't use a local hospital that tries to charge $10,000 more, so they charge only $900 more because it's all they can get away with. But that's only if there's price transparency -- if you can't find out ahead of time that it costs $10,000 more for the local hospital then people choose it anyway and there is no incentive for them to lower their prices, which is where we are now.

> You can't just walk into a hospital and choose between Name Brand MRI or Store Brand MRI. It requires a level of knowledge that most people don't have. It's knowledge I don't have! And something I'd prefer to never have to think about when I have other shit to deal with in real life.

And that option exists -- you buy an expansive low deductible insurance plan that covers everything. That necessarily comes at the cost of very high premiums, because it has to cover the cost of making you price-insensitive.

You can also buy a less expensive insurance plan that doesn't cover everything and then consider anything it doesn't cover as unavailable. That's what socialized systems generally do, because they do make people price-insensitive but still have budgetary requirements to meet. But there's no reason you can't get a private plan that does that either; just don't object when it doesn't cover everything. You pay for what you get, one way or another.

> Your analogy falls apart because the government does make mandates for cars. Things like safety features.

They also have mandates for medicine. There is a whole medical licensing system. That's independent from who pays for it.

> When you're looking for a car, you have some properties of a car which are easily understandable. When you're searching for medical assistance, most people only vaguely know what's actually wrong.

I don't see how it's different. There are plenty of subtleties when buying anything expensive that aren't readily apparent, like that car insurance can be more than the car payment, or that some models depreciate faster than others so you have to account for future resale value, or that some models have more frequent repairs, or more expensive repairs. Some people buy based on style and only later find out through experience the total cost of ownership is $40,000 higher than they expected.

It's the same thing with healthcare, but it's the same thing with healthcare either way. Regardless of who is paying, which doctor has the best patient outcomes? Which medication is more effective? What clinical trials are there for your condition? You can ask your doctor, but first you have to choose your doctor. And then, in the end, they only advise you what to do. It's still your decision and your life.

Re: When Medical Debt Collectors Decide Who Gets Arrested

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because for-profit healthcare is immoral, wasteful, and inevitably results in scenarios like the above. A Bismarck system (nonprofit govt sponsored insurance companies that all charge the same and are taken by all doctors) would be fine too, but that's not on the table in the US

I think the point was that there are multiple different reforms that are important, and why health care over another. What if there is a candidate that is for health care reform, but against something else you consider important, but there's another candidate that's for the other reform, but against health care reform? Or there is a candidate that is for health care reform but also for other things your are strongly…

Politics is all about compromises, so the answer to all of those questions is, “it depends”.

Re: When Medical Debt Collectors Decide Who Gets Arrested

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Medical providers not being able to provide the total cost for a non-emergency procedure up-front but then expecting people to pay whatever price they make up after the fact is practically fraud. The fact that it leads to outrageous costs is entirely predictable. I’d like to turn the question around and ask folks who believe that the healthcare problem is one of not enough market freedom: what’s an example of a cou…

The Netherlands and Switzerland both have functioning private insurance systems. There are also several functioning hybrid systems, like Germany and Israel. But the primary reason you don't see more successes is the lack of attempts. It's not as if there is a long list of countries with failed free market healthcare systems, either.

The Netherlands does not have a private health insurance scheme. Or rather, it does, but all the prices are basically fixed, and the biggest choice you have is whom you are paying money to. The services are ultimately much the same.
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