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Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#61

Post by dragonwriter »

alpineidyll3 wrote: post #47
spamizbad wrote: post #29

It's a cynical move to hit their enrollment numbers, sold to the public as something to improve "diversity". But it's really just laying the groundwork for schools to cope with life after the college boom is over. For elite schools, it also makes it easier to provide cover for legacy and donor admissions. You no longer have to explain how Keese James Shackleford IV got into the the Shackleford school of dkljalfjaf wh…

Exactly. Colleges are in the business of marketing prestige, why lend credibility to a test anyone can take to prove they are intelligent without paying to attend for four years. Ex professor here. Faculty have the power to end this bezzle if we admit students are learning nothing and we'd all be better off with real jobs.

> Ex professor here. Faculty have the power to end this bezzle if we admit students are learning nothing and we'd all be better off with real jobs.

I learned quite a lot in most of my classes in college; if your students weren't maybe that's not an indictment of the education system so much as their particular institution & instructors.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#62

Post by Torwald »

downrightmike wrote: post #57
SamReidHughes wrote: post #7

This is because they want to enroll people too stupid to solve basic math problems.

Yes and because that will at least get them one semester out of these kids, which will probably need student loans. Even in state tuition will be many thousands of dollars that will trap these kids.

So much then for basic Math problem solving.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#63

Post by thatfrenchguy »

xyzzyz wrote: post #44
kdmccormick wrote: post #37

Have all the commenters here assuming that this is a misguided attempt that'll end up letting any idiot into degree programs as long as they are labeled "diverse" considered that maybe, possibly standardized tests aren't necessarily a good measure of one's ability to a learn well through a degree program? That maybe the ability to answer hundreds of multiple choice questions and write five-paragraph essays in several…

It is well known and universally acknowledged that SAT scores are highly predictive of educational outcomes. See eg. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e... . You can use other alternative measures to predict educational success, but it’s important to get it right, otherwise you’ll end up with low quality student body that isn’t able to learn much and will drop out at high rates. Currently, hi…

> See eg. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e....

Quoting the company that sells you those tests to tell you those tests are predictive is quite fun.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#64

Post by thatfrenchguy »

TomVDB wrote: post #56
kthejoker2 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a really useful signal detector then.

The SAT and ACT are a fantastic detector to identify rich and motivated parents who are willing to drop off their kid for 2 years at cramming centers for weekly tutoring sessions and trial tests... and who are willing to pay thousands for it. I’ve been there, his scores went up significantly. I don’t think it made him smarter in any way. Combine that with our ability to buy a house in a very good school district and…

> It’s all bullshit.

And it's terrible for most upper (middle) kids because they end up thinking they're better than everyone else and that they deserve what they have.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#65

Post by xyzzyz »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #63
xyzzyz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is well known and universally acknowledged that SAT scores are highly predictive of educational outcomes. See eg. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e... . You can use other alternative measures to predict educational success, but it’s important to get it right, otherwise you’ll end up with low quality student body that isn’t able to learn much and will drop out at high rates. Currently, hi…

> See eg. https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/educators/higher-e... . Quoting the company that sells you those tests to tell you those tests are predictive is quite fun.

Their result match everyone else’s, so I see no reason to not cite them.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#66

Post by xyzzyz »

dragonwriter wrote: post #61
alpineidyll3 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Colleges are in the business of marketing prestige, why lend credibility to a test anyone can take to prove they are intelligent without paying to attend for four years. Ex professor here. Faculty have the power to end this bezzle if we admit students are learning nothing and we'd all be better off with real jobs.

> Ex professor here. Faculty have the power to end this bezzle if we admit students are learning nothing and we'd all be better off with real jobs. I learned quite a lot in most of my classes in college; if your students weren't maybe that's not an indictment of the education system so much as their particular institution & instructors.

I’ve also learned a lot in my degrees, and greatly enjoyed my time in the university. However, I’ve only ever needed a tiny fraction of what I learned there in my jobs at Google and Facebook.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#67

Post by ryandrake »

Sounds like they're just trying to get more people through the meat grinder. Unpopular opinion on HN, but if I'm really honest, I didn't learn much about my chosen profession (embedded software development) at college and felt it was mostly a waste of four years. It was all about jumping through the right hoops, getting the credential so I could pass through the Career Gatekeepers.

Half of the software engineering curriculum was too abstract and math-y, and not practical enough. The other half that actually focused on programming were way below my existing programming skill level at the time. I'm trying not to make it a humblebrag, but there were about 3-4 of us who were self-taught and already knew a few languages, who slept through the classes and got straight As and the rest struggled to get hello_world.c to even compile before getting their D and moving on to major in Business. There were some neat software-related electives like compiler construction and one or two cool labs (build a computer from a 68000 and some wires) but they were the exception.

The required electives and diversity indoctrination classes that were supposed to make me well rounded (or whatever) were a waste of time. Nobody took them seriously. I never got into the greek life or into college sports. So most of it felt like high school minus the wood shop boneheads. "Get this game's level over with, with minimal pain, so I can move on to the next level."

Only later did I find out that all of work life is about grinding through the level so you can pass a career gatekeeper and get to the next level. So at least college prepared me with that skill.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#68

Post by goatinaboat »

TomVDB wrote: post #56
kthejoker2 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a really useful signal detector then.

The SAT and ACT are a fantastic detector to identify rich and motivated parents who are willing to drop off their kid for 2 years at cramming centers for weekly tutoring sessions and trial tests... and who are willing to pay thousands for it. I’ve been there, his scores went up significantly. I don’t think it made him smarter in any way. Combine that with our ability to buy a house in a very good school district and…

I’m proud parent, and I want my child to get all the opportunities

Every parent believes this, and so here we are. It was in your power to opt out but you chose not to.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#69

Post by hackinthebochs »

wyxuan wrote: post #50

I think there are a lot cynics here, but they should take the test before you really understand why SAT/ACT is stupid as an admission req. Source: Took the test

I probably wouldn't have got into the university I did or have the career I have if it weren't for SATs. And no, I didn't have wealthy parents who could afford test prep courses. My prep consisted self-directed study using off-the-shelf test prep material.

As a way to discover scholastic talent in populations that is otherwise invisible, it does a good job. If the goal is to discover "talent" that somehow is impervious to measurement of any kind, of course testing is bad at that. But then again the premise seems suspicious.

Re: Record number of colleges drop SAT/ACT admissions requirement

#70

Post by docbrown »

xyzzyz wrote: post #66
dragonwriter wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ex professor here. Faculty have the power to end this bezzle if we admit students are learning nothing and we'd all be better off with real jobs. I learned quite a lot in most of my classes in college; if your students weren't maybe that's not an indictment of the education system so much as their particular institution & instructors.

I’ve also learned a lot in my degrees, and greatly enjoyed my time in the university. However, I’ve only ever needed a tiny fraction of what I learned there in my jobs at Google and Facebook.

Depending on your job, i think people confuse the true idea of what a college education is meant to be.

It is not a trade, nor is it career-prepping with the exception of a handful of programs (engineering, nursing, accounting).

So in your case, depending on your field, your education was designed to give you a basic understanding of the fundamentals that you will need and the critical thinking skills that will allow you to alter those fundamentals into something workable for the project you’re doing at Google or Facebook.

Edit: I once spoke to a MechE graduate from MIT. They held internships at one of the Big Three automakers. During our conversation, I asked explicitly: what do they teach you at school? engine design? safety harness mechanisms?

They said, “No. They teach us the foundations of engineering.”

You could ask the same to a law school student. Do they teach you the law?

No, they don’t. They explain the law to you and encourage you to apply the law under your own discretion. They do not give you simple A, B, C answers to a case. The example of “John murdered Steve, but Steve was a slave and John had a contract of borrowing Steve. Is John responsible for Steve’s death or is Steve considered property under federal statue — as he’s a slave — and therefore would not be protected by standard of care?”

As you can see, no true education gives you direct cause-and-effect answers, unless specifically those mentioned in my above paragraph.

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