Live data from Hacker News

Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

bbc.com

561–570 of 573 posts

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're overestimating how difficult it is to setup a smart device with something like Nabu Casa's Home Assistant Cloud.

And youre over estimating the technical literacy of the average person. This is the first time I've heard of nabu casa, I just checked out their website and they're immediately talking about yaml, I've browsed every page I can see and I can't see anything about setting it up. Another labe mentionrd docker and JWT as troubleshooting steps - that's too much for 99.99999% of people to ever use.

I'm under no delusion that the average person can, or is willing, to setup something like Home Assistant.

I was answering a question posted on HN, where the assumption that the average HN user is capable of fiddling with hardware and software is usually valid.

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people willingly bringing always on listening devices in to their homes I just can't comprehend it. The reason is "people" lack education in technology. They can barely use a computer these days, with "using a computer" generally means being on Facebook with a browser. There's a very significant divide in this regard that has been growing for decades. And it isn't getting any better. This is why it is nearly imposs…

"The reason is "people" lack education in technology" This is a dumb statement. Lots of tech people use all of these devices. In fact smart tech people differentiate between machine listening and humans listening. A Math, Tech person know that the probability of a human listening to my recording is close 0.000001%. Humans, including yourself, make far worse decisions every day in your life that have much higher detri…

>> "The reason is "people" lack education in technology"

> This is a dumb statement.

How about doing a bit of research before saying stuff like that?

For example:

https://lifehacker.com/this-chart-shows-how-computer-literat...

From the article:

"The results aren’t terribly surprising if you’ve ever worked a help desk. Around 5% of the U.S. population ranks at level 3, the strongest level of computer literacy. Another 26% ranks at level 2, where users can do things like “find a sustainability-related document that was sent to you by John Smith in October last year.” Those who ranked in level 2 likely aren’t developers or engineers, but they get by.

However, for the 69% of the population below level 2, complex skills are still hard to come by. 26% of people weren’t even able to use computers. The full report at the source link below shows how these numbers break down over age ranges. Regardless, the numbers give some perspective on how skilled the overall population is."

And this is about using a computer. Understanding technology in general is a very different matter. The data on this isn't difficult to discover. There have been a number of studies, for example:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/12/04/half-of-ame...

The vast majority of the population is utterly ignorant when it comes to technology. Start adding areas like machine learning and AI and the chasm is massive, deep and wide.

Using tech people to claim this problem does not exists and, therefore, calling the statement "stupid", betrays a failure to understand the topic at hand.

The same is true about medical knowledge. The vast majority of the population is utterly ignorant about medical science, pharmacology, etc. Claiming this statement is "stupid" because doctors, nurses and medical practitioners do, in fact, understand the domain, is, again, missing the point. And missing reality.

The example is useful because, unlike in the general case of technology, the medical sector has a range of safeguards, rules and laws in place in order to protect consumers. Very little, if any, of that exists in technology.

You can manufacture and sell a 3D printer that can fail and burn down someone's house. There is not FDA equivalent in order to ensure some level of safety exists as a minimum. If you think FCC, UL, CE and TUV provide those safeguards, well, you are obviously not in the hardware business. This is particularly true for the utter junk that comes from China, where these certifications are given away like candy and ar sometimes falsified.

And so, you can insert a microphone and a camera into a consumer device and there really isn't anything preventing anyone from using those sensors nefariously. This is particularly true if the device's firmware and software can be updated over the 'net. Which means you can ship a device that can test out to be completely benign. Later on the same device is updated over the net to include obtrusive capabilities that compromise privacy, and nobody is there to prevent that.

And then, of course, there's this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vL4HLTZQ_Q

and this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-lMIGV-dUI

...and who can forget this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHGd6LqAVzw

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#563
post #115

I was a huge Google Fan but this is becoming lunacy. I understood trading some data and privacy for great search results, maps and free quality email. But people willingly bringing always on listening devices in to their homes (beyond what smartphones are already capable of) I just can't comprehend it. Why would people voluntarily do this in exchange for being able to ask for weather, play a playlist, add a todo and…

What does having a Nest thermostat get you? I'm a tech dude, I build modern software, but I live in a dumb, old fashioned house. My programmable Honeywell thermostat, which has no internet connection, does a perfectly fine job of keeping my home the right temperature. My door locks use a key, and keys have great battery life, and my smoke detectors beep instead of speaking to me. What am I missing by not having inter…

IMO? Nothing.

I do have some WeMo switches on some lamps in our living room. I got them instead of fiddly-dip-switch timers before a vacation several years ago, and it turns out I like having them come on an X time automatically, and turn off at 10, when we typically go to bed. We never interact with them; it's great.

But the thermostat is dumb (but programmable). The locks are all regular locks. We have no smart speaker (dear god WHY?). The TV is dumb.

Why? Because I've spent 30 years in software, and my watchword is "don't put firmware in shit that doesn't fucking need firmware."

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#564
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A programmable keypad is nice. I have a Z-wave one which can notify my Smarthings hub which notifies me when it's locked or unlocked. The Nest thermostat allows me to control the heat remotely. These two things are great for rental properties. Guests often forget to lock the door, I have records of when guests or maintenance people are coming or going, I can adjust the heat to 55 when nobody is there which saves a lo…

It sounds like you have short-term rental properties, aka unregulated hotels, or more accurately regulation-skirting residential businesses. In normal rentals, guests are called tenants, and in most places tenants have all the same privacy rights as property owners. Therefore, a landlord having access to or retaining any information about door usage or audio-video of the property would likely be illegal. Perhaps a ca…

> It sounds like you have short-term rental properties, aka unregulated hotels, or more accurately regulation-skirting residential businesses.

This is not correct. I pay transient occupancy tax just like the hotels (11% at one, 7% for another) and also have local authorities come out periodically for certifications to make sure everything is up to their standards (fire alarms, extinguishers, lighting, safety rails, notices posted outside, etc).

If I was in a city that didn't have regulations for short term rentals, then it wouldn't be a regulation-skirting business anyway. It's only skirting if the area has TOT and regulations in place and you don't abide. How did you get to this conclusion based on my post?

> I mean you've basically admitted... that you record your guests in outside areas where they can expect privacy

No I didn't. And my listings clearly state that I have cameras outside.

> That people make movies in places they expect privacy (shocking)

Why is this shocking? They were making a low budget horror film. You need a license to film a movie on someone else's property and the city has regulations and procedures for filming. Not to mention they started a large fire in the desert and I could see the fire department come out and have a conversation with them. The guest also lied to me saying they were having a little couples getaway and we even gave them a discount because we were told it would just be 2 of them.

> and of course you don't look at any of those skinny-dipping videos wink wink. Funny how unregulated businesses attracting unregulated activities still like to have some way to regulate their guests--and do so likely illegally.

I have a pool at one property but there are no video cameras overlooking the pool. Or even the back yard for that matter.

You've made a lot of assumptions.

If you don't like short term rentals because some people don't comply then that's fine but hotels have bad actors too. Plenty of hotel owners not paying their share of TOT taxes, peep holes in bathrooms, stealing property when cleaning. Ever see those service spaces between 2 rooms? Bad actors would use those for peep holes and watch guests in person.

> I mean second-home you couldn't afford without hotel-income

Actually I can afford both without hotel-income. Even if I couldn't - the cities approve of it and get income and jobs.

> But you don't deal with the bad apples by violating the rights of everyone else, at least unless you want to invite scrutiny and regulation into your activities.

I comply with regulations and also create a lot of income for people in cleaning, maintenance, upgrades. We pay a living wage to all service providers.

Nor do I violate the rights of anyone.

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd disagree with this. Frequently they look through peoples records. Whenever someone dies it is the first thing they do. They also on one hand talk about holo decks being a private space but how often do we see them walking in on peoples' sims. You could totally just shut down the sim from the outside if the person inside is not responding and that would more readily respect that person's privacy (but isn't good fo…

When someone dies or goes missing, not even an hour goes by before someone like Geordi or Riker is sifting through their personal log entries. :)

QUICK! Let's look at their personal logs!

Like come on guys, there's more than personal logs. There should be more barriers before you go there. But to also be fair, it is stuff they know is going to be used in that way and it isn't just a log of everything they've said in their room. So there is a little more consent involved. I don't think you can really give consent to always listening devices.

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The privacy risk is not the same and the convenience to mitigate is not there I can leave my phone at home when I go out. In another room. Shut it off. I do all of these things quite regularly. Do I go around and disable numerous smarthome gadgets for privacy or stick with my oh so terrible life without them? Bonus! I can avoid awkward conversations with my guests. People buy products because we feel they help us be…

How are you sure you can turn it off? Are you removing the batteries? I don't understand how the risk is anything but greater with a phone.

Have you ever seen a verified case of a smartphone operating while off? I have only seen rumors. If you are going to be that paranoid then how do you know removing batteries turns it off? Maybe there is a Secret battery for spying on people.

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#567
post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A programmable keypad is nice. I have a Z-wave one which can notify my Smarthings hub which notifies me when it's locked or unlocked. The Nest thermostat allows me to control the heat remotely. These two things are great for rental properties. Guests often forget to lock the door, I have records of when guests or maintenance people are coming or going, I can adjust the heat to 55 when nobody is there which saves a lo…

Honestly all this monitoring and "busting" and "exposing" people for minor infractions sounds exhausting. Personally I have other things to spend my time on than surveilling people. Frankly it's kind of bleak to imagine you sitting around keeping an eye on your surveillance cameras and graphs to make sure no one is stepping out of line.

It's only when I get reports from neighbors, my turnover crew or they make a false claim on AirBnB. The tech in the Nest cams make it so you don't have to wade through footage. It short links to events and has great detection as I mentioned.

None of what I wrote was minor either. If a vendor is charging me and not showing up, that's fraud. Bus full of people - over my approved capacity and I can get fined. Filming - I can get fined. Fire in the desert - big liability. Stealing firewood - theft and now my guests won't have any.

Not sure why you are fabricating a story that isn't there.

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#568
post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly all this monitoring and "busting" and "exposing" people for minor infractions sounds exhausting. Personally I have other things to spend my time on than surveilling people. Frankly it's kind of bleak to imagine you sitting around keeping an eye on your surveillance cameras and graphs to make sure no one is stepping out of line.

OP sounds like a voyeur

The homes serve a lot of guests and 95% of them are respectful. How does reviewing footage when they make false claims or I get a report from a neighbor make me a voyeur?

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is never going to come a day when any of these companies give you more control over your devices. Why would they? Thats their entire competitive advantage.

The Pixel 4 does speech to text on device. They do it because it's faster. Once it becomes a solved problem, there will be better open source devices and more competition. On device will be a checkbox feature. Not every company makes you the product.

>Not every company makes you the product.

yeah, but since that has been a workable angle we'd had an explosion of companies that do make you the product.

I wouldn't assume the inverse over time related to a reduction in effort from better devices and competition; i'd assume further growth.

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#570
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does having a Nest thermostat get you? I'm a tech dude, I build modern software, but I live in a dumb, old fashioned house. My programmable Honeywell thermostat, which has no internet connection, does a perfectly fine job of keeping my home the right temperature. My door locks use a key, and keys have great battery life, and my smoke detectors beep instead of speaking to me. What am I missing by not having inter…

I have a cheaper thermostat with wifi, a few months ago it alerted me that the temperature had been more than 5 degrees over setpoint for half an hour and something was probably broken. I was able to remotely shut off the unit and after I came home from work, sure enough the coils had iced over due to a refrigerant leak. It was only hot enough for this to happen at the peak of the heat when I was at work. I was able…

Is there any advantage in involving you in the loop, though? Couldn't it just shutdown upon detecting the problem and turn on a warning light for you to see when you got home?
Post reply on HN